<p>"Check out the facebook group for our class. We're talking about different types of liquor, hookah, sports, what have you."</p>
<p>Haha that's funny. I've seen similar discussion threads in our facebook groups. I wonder if the adcoms knew these kids actually hookah and drink with fake IDs on the weekends when they chose them in a competitive applicant pool :)</p>
<p>my 10:</p>
<p>Yale
Princeton
Stanford
Northwestern
Columbia
Rice
Penn
Duke
Brown
Tufts</p>
<p>Chicago students, in terms of intelligence, are on par with every other school mentioned so far on this thread, not discernibly higher or lower. (I will say this even for HYP-- the cross-admits at HYP/Chicago who ended up choosing Chicago are not at the top of Chicago). Every school-- yes, Penn, yes, Brown, yes Duke, yes, Northwestern, has smart kids. Career placement, grad school placement, SAT scores, class rank, and all that numerical data will back that up.</p>
<p>Where Chicago differentiates itself, though, is through intellectualism. There was a huge discussion on the facebook 2011 group of what intellectualism actually means, but to me it means students who are unafraid to nosedive into Smith, Marx, et. al. and students who confuse work and play (they find course readings fun and will talk about "smart things" at a party).</p>
<p>It's sad that this comes off as a superiority complex, but I think it's because Chicago students need each other and can't imagine themselves at a more conventional "party" school. For most of us at the school, (or for me, at least), I so desperately needed to be around people who loved school the way I loved school, because I had difficulty connecting with my "smart" peers in high school who could perform for grades but were uninterested in discussing stuff outside of the classroom setting.</p>
<p>"I mean, I just dislike that Chicago kids think they are intellectual whereas other schools that have big party scenes aren't, and are thus worse academically. You'll see many posts on CC where people say "Well, Chicago is very intellectual" as if that actually means something."</p>
<p>Oh please. And every one of those posts are in response to someone stating that Chicago is a wretched school full of dull nerds who know nothing about fun. How exactly are Chicago fans supposed to respond? You don't think you set these kids up to give those statements that drives you crazy? You don't think it's quite normal for Chicago fans to be perplexed a bit and to respond that they actually do have fun and that much to the contrary Chicago is actually an intellectual place? </p>
<p>As for the place being intellectual, it's not a boast, it's supposed to be a way of life. Chicago actually looks for kids who think about what they're thinking.(That's what those tricky essays are all about) No one says they're smarter than other schools....but they are being trained by Chicago to be thinkers. </p>
<p>You may scoff, but Chicago has always held this place in Academia. The Fiske guide calls the school intellectual, as does the Princeton guide. When WSJ needs a quote from someone with gravitas they almost always turn to someone from Chicago. Heck, in Hollywood if a screenwriter needs to show a character is edgy and brillant they have the set designer tack up a Chicago degree....see CSI and L&O:) The place has been at the forefront of American thought for decades, to say it's not an intellectual powerhouse is just plain ignorant. The school is distinctly not for everyone....it's not better than, nor is it worse....it's just very different in ways that should be appreciated rather than sneered at.</p>
<p>Any college is fun. But when compared to other colleges you are lying to yourself and everyone else if you try and compare it to most other colleges in this regard. Chicago prides itself on its intensity. You can't have it both ways.</p>
<p>Right, but a lot of us in Chicago get a great sense of fulfillment out of that intensity, which is worth more to me than all the beer pong cups in the world.</p>
<p>Ah, yes, Chicago kids love that knowledge and other schools don't - they just focus on drinking games/tailgating. </p>
<p>In seriousness though, you can't be intellectual/intense AND social/fun. </p>
<p>(of course, I mean "on average" - every school has all sorts of people, just different proportions of each type).</p>
<p>"In seriousness though, you can't be intellectual/intense AND social/fun"</p>
<p>Says who? Drinking and intellectual/creative thought has been a happy pairing since the stone age.(Or at least the ancient greeks) I'm actually sitting here thinking of intellectuals past and present that have had so much fun that society took serious issue with them. Mad, bad and dangerous to know doesn't come without intellectual intensity.</p>
<p>I think that you and Slipper have defined fun according to your own standards and haven't quite realized that the very nature of fun is that one does something that gives one pleasure. It's not one size fits all. </p>
<p>If Chicago kids report that they party, that they head into Chicago to let loose, that they have like every other school goofy traditions like Scavhunt and such, then what exactly makes them such bores? Lack of a great sports team? </p>
<p>You insist that Chicago kids are dismissive of other schools because of drinking games and tailgating....is drinking games/tailgating the missing thing that makes Chicago so lacking? Is this your definition of fun?</p>
<p>"Every school-- yes, Penn, yes, Brown, yes Duke, yes, Northwestern, has smart kids. Career placement, grad school placement, SAT scores, class rank, and all that numerical data will back that up.</p>
<p>Where Chicago differentiates itself, though, is through intellectualism. There was a huge discussion on the facebook 2011 group of what intellectualism actually means."</p>
<p>Right. Because Chicago was the school that coin-phrased the idea of "intellectualism" for college students, right? And this huge discussion on the 2011 facebook group is proof to your intellectualism, this thread on the same forum where Chicago students were talking about what they like to drink and how often they hookah like one of your incoming students just posted? Please.</p>
<p>Intellectualism isn't something Chicago exclusively owns. Every top-notch school like Columbia, Penn, Brown, Duke and Northwestern is founded on the idea of promoting intellectualism in the lives of its graduates.</p>
<p>And ramses, we're not comparing Chicago to any "conventional 'party' school," because as far as I know, Penn, Brown, Duke and Northwestern are anything but conventional "party" schools; they are highly respected academic institutions known especially for their balance between excellent academics and a good social life.</p>
<p>"As for the place being intellectual, it's not a boast, it's supposed to be a way of life."</p>
<p>If intellectualism is a way of life, maybe you should be able to convey the fact that Chicago is distinguished from other schools through the depth of your posts and words, without having to repeat in every single post that Chicago is, in fact, distinguished by its intellectualism. Evidently, intellectualism is not a way of life that shows in their logic for the Chicago CC posters.</p>
<p>"to me it [intellectualism] means students who are unafraid to nosedive into Smith, Marx, et. al. and students who confuse work and play."</p>
<p>Hey, I loved studying Smith and Marx, and I'm often intrigued in my reading for psychology class that I feel like I'm reading for pleasure. But hey, I didn't go to Chicago. <em>gasp</em></p>
<p>And ramses, we're not comparing Chicago to any "conventional 'party' school," because as far as I know, Penn, Brown, Duke and Northwestern are anything but conventional "party" schools; they are highly respected academic institutions known especially for their balance between excellent academics and a good social life."</p>
<p>I'm not putting down the schools you've mentioned. I just don't see how their(your) definition of fun is that much different or better than Chicago's. You can find squirrelly anti socials at any of the schools you've mentioned just as you can find kids having fun. Sweet green liquor mixed with red bull isn't some nectar just sipped at 'really cool' schools. Asserting over and over Chicago is unbalanced means nothing unless you know Chicago. Coming from Columbia I'm guessing you don't know Chicago. Biased maybe,...well informed, doubtful. The kids I know at Chicago are having fun and they wouldn't be out of place at the schools you've named. Kids having fun isn't some exclusive that only some schools have.</p>
<p>"...Intellectualism is a way of life, maybe you should be able to convey the fact that Chicago is distinguished from other schools through the depth of your posts and words, without having to repeat in every single post that Chicago is, in fact, distinguished by its intellectualism. Evidently, intellectualism is not a way of life that shows in their logic for the Chicago CC posters."</p>
<p>Riiiight. (You just lack reading comprehension skills?) I guess I should never have responded to posts that assert Chicago isn't intellectual by calling up Fiske and Princeton guides that actually call Chicago intellectual, or mention recent intellectual alumni, or discuss what the school is up to now, what common culture thinks of the school, or what the school itself considers it's philosophy(life of the mind). Because by showing that not just students consider Chicago intellectual I wasn't answering those same assertions right?</p>
<p>And you know, In the past I've discussed why I believe Chicago deserves it's place as a top school. I've mentioned it's influence on big law, the literary world and economics. It's collections are world class and it's fairly recent grads are extremely influential all throughout the various aspects of our culture. Sorry if you don't think any of this is worthy of consideration, but frankly I doubt your mind is open to anything regards Chicago.</p>
<p>I'm a bit angry at myself for following up with these comments, but I feel the need to defend myself and kill this false holier-than-thou halo some of you are putting on my comments.</p>
<p>Of course wherever smart people go, intellectualism follows in some form or another. I have smart, nerdy, intellectual friends at schools from Dartmouth to Harvard to Stanford to Northwestern to SUNY Binghamton, and all of them have found likeminded people and would defend their schools as fully as I am now if they were to come under attack. </p>
<p>However, I think it could be harder for me to find the intellectuals at other schools. Maybe it would help to explain that I often felt out of place in high school, in that I felt I was enjoying the curriculum much more than my classmates, who, even though they did better than I did, did not care about the material as much. Because I make the bulk of my friends through school and academic things, I wanted a school where I could meet lots of nerds and talk about nerdy things like Jane Eyre and the LaGrange Error bound theorem. .. at Chicago, nerds are left, right, and center.</p>
<p>So yes, I chose Chicago for social reasons. Laugh all you want.</p>
<p>I should mention that I respect almost every school in the nation and I believe that at almost any school, one can challenge oneself and one can find people who are passionate about their studies. I'm sure I would be happy at almost any college in the country, because I would find my own and get involved in class. Again, though, it would be more of a search for people like me.</p>
<p>Plus, there's no dichotomy between being social and being intellectual. Isn't this an argument that students at Dartmouth, Duke, etc, usually make? You can definitely be both. One of my most party- and club- happy friends is also one of the most intellectual people I know. He adores the school and has found opportunities to party.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In seriousness though, you can't be intellectual/intense AND social/fun.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I guess the great philosophers/thinkers, writers, academics, artists, etc. of our time never frequented the bars/cafes in The Village in NYC or the Left Bank in Paris.</p>
<p>k&S I wasn't referring to the individuals, I was referring to the social scene.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I wasn't referring to the individuals, I was referring to the social scene.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess - So was I.</p>
<p>I have three ways to demonstrate that Chicago is intellectual. One is to say that it is intellectual and cross my fingers that you'll take my word for it (doubtful, I know), the second is to tell you about the conversations I've had with fellow Chicagoans about the Great Vowel Shift, the word "ubiquitous" and its importance in the context of the first two paragraphs of Portnoy's Complaint, what would happen if one were to substitute the word "cupcake" into famous first lines of books, why "Brave New World" is an imperfect novel (don't ask), word origins, math proofs, how to get your baby to say, "Foucault," and on an on. But you won't like that either, because that's all anecdotal.</p>
<p>So I move to my third option: how the school markets itself. Anybody who has been to an info session hosted by the school remarks that the school does not try to hide its nerdiness/intellectualism, but rather embraces it; the the uncommon questions require some off-the-wall thinking; Hyde Park is home to five amazing bookstores (seven when you count Borders and Barnes and Noble) and two shoddy bars; the Core Curriculum designed to make students confront big ideas. All of these aspects are testaments to the school's intellectualism and its aggressive pursuit of it. As a result, students who are looking to be intellectual (or talk about school stuff, or however you want to say it) end up finding a home in Chicago.</p>
<p>What I think MuffinKing, k&s, and Ramses 2 have tried to point out is that the school is not intellectual at the exclusion of all social life. There are parties. There are people who smoke hookah and have fake IDs. There are kids who like to have fun in conventional ways. etc.</p>
<p>"The second is to tell you about the conversations I've had with fellow Chicagoans about the Great Vowel Shift, the word "ubiquitous" and its importance in the context of the first two paragraphs of Portnoy's Complaint, what would happen if one were to substitute the word "cupcake" into famous first lines of books, why "Brave New World" is an imperfect novel (don't ask), word origins, math proofs, how to get your baby to say, "Foucault," and on an on. But you won't like that either, because that's all anecdotal."</p>
<p>I don't like your post not just because its anecdotal, but because it seems to suggest that this doesn't happen at other places. At every school in which I've studied or visited there has been some of this- people discussing politics, philosophy, literature, etc. There is NOTHING special about Chicago in this regard. </p>
<p>"As a result, students who are looking to be intellectual (or talk about school stuff, or however you want to say it) end up finding a home in Chicago."</p>
<p>-These people go to most every school! Just because you think Chicago has more people sitting around talking about "school stuff" doesn't mean it's any more intellectual. I've spent many an evening talking about philosophy, politics, history, etc with people at my school. </p>
<p>"The uncommon questions require some off-the-wall thinking"</p>
<p>-You've said the magic word "uncommon"- let's see how many people come up to tell just how "common" Chicago really is... Like how it switched to the "common" application... the fact that there would be students protesting the switch is off putting to me.. God forbid Chicago be just like its peers... the intellectual world as we know it would cease to exist.... :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Anecdotal accounts of the great intellectualism you've experienced at a given school is not a strong argument for the exclusivity of said intellectualism. Chicago does have a certain ivory-tower quality, or at least it tries to embrace one. Therefore, it does end up attracting more nerdish, cloistered, intellectual types. </p>
<p>That is not to say that Chicago is intellectual to the fault of others, but only that at a school like say...Northwestern...everyone will be smart, but the minority who don't like to discuss lofty, grandiose ideas openly might be larger at Northwestern than at Chicago. </p>
<p>This is only because Chicago has a brutal reputation. It shamelessly flaunts how hard students will have to study, its alternative/poor social scene and the whole "where fun comes to die" thing. A student of equal intelligence could, and often does (according to the preference rankings) choose Northwestern over Chicago. But Chicago still acts as a bastion for intellectualism, because there is a certain type of student that is attracted to its reputation: the overtly, and often self-conscious (to the point of pretension perhaps) "intellectual" student.</p>
<p>this argument has turned into a waste of time. do some people at chicago drink? yes of course. when i visited there did we have to spent 2.5 hours trying to find the one place on campus where more than 3 people were drinking in a room together? yes</p>
<p>
[quote]
It shamelessly flaunts how hard students will have to study
[/quote]
this is the "age-old" reputation i was talking about. chicago has the same average GPA as northwestern, etc. the people i know who transferred from uchicago to northwestern actually unanimously said northwestern grades harder and requires more studying.</p>
<p>KK, I think your confusing intellectual with intelligent. No one is saying an intellectual is better, just different. By it's nature most preprofessional schools aren't hotbeds for intellectual thought. Intelligent thought yes, but most of the time these kids view school as work that they want to forget about on the weekends when they let loose and have fun. They don't want to think about thinking. There's nothing wrong with that. Intellectuals on the other hand tend to see what they're studying as fun so you'll often find conversations that spill out of the classroom and into a pub. All schools have kids that fit the intellectual definition, it's just that Chicago agressively wants this type of kid to represent their student body.(Much as Penn nurtures it's preprofessional image)</p>
<p>Again, Chicago kids aren't the only ones who see the student body as intellectual, check out the various college guide books.</p>
<p>
[quote]
By it's nature most preprofessional schools aren't hotbeds for intellectual thought. Intelligent thought yes, but most of the time these kids view school as work that they want to forget about on the weekends when they let loose and have fun... Intellectuals on the other hand tend to see what they're studying as fun so you'll often find conversations that spill out of the classroom and into a pub.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>this is the first thing, ramses, that you've said that i agree with, and i think is a very accurate picture of the difference between a chicago or swarthmore and a northwestern or upenn.</p>
<p>"KK, I think your confusing intellectual with intelligent."</p>
<p>All I'm saying is that this happens at other places. Chicago is not special in that regard. Colleges are not full of clones, and Chicago most certainly doesn't hold the patent on college intellectualism.</p>
<p>I think it is often misrepresented that Chicago is a place for 'intellectuals' and a place like Northwestern or Penn or Duke is not. Like I said, colleges are not full of clones- are you more likely to find a particular kind of person in some schools? Sure. But that doesn't mean that those kinds of people don't exist elsewhere.</p>