Top 8 Reasons Not to Go to Berkeley

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^ actually, if you were aware of the transfer process at all, you'd know that berkeley often doesn't let students take particular classes at community college, and those classes tend to be weeders. They then require those courses to be taken your first semester at berkeley before you can officially declare. Sure, you might think it's unfair that a person who takes organic chem or an engineering class at community college gets to go straight to upper-division berkeley classes, but how else would it be feasible for them to graduate within 4 years? And especially with regards to difficult/impacted majors like engineering and business, it is extremely difficult to be admitted as a transfer.

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<p>Trust me, I know how the transfer process works quite well. </p>

<p>First off, I never said that the transfer students get to skip over ALL the weeders. Nevertheless, the fact remains that many transfer students get to skip over many weeders. And that's simply not fair to the freshman admits who have to take all of the weeders. The point is, there needs to be weeder-equity between the freshman admits and the transfers. The freshman admits should not be weeded out any harder than the transfers are.</p>

<p>Secondly, your point about how hard it is for transfer students to get admitted to engineering and business is irrelevant, because it is also extremely difficult for a freshman admit to get into engineering, and all freshman admits have to basically 'transfer' into Haas if that's what they want. So the point is, like I said above, both have to survive tough admissions standards. Hence, it's a wash. The difference is that the freshman-admits also have to survive the full sequence of weeders whereas the transfers do not.</p>

<p>Your point about how else transfer students would be able to graduate in 4 years is somewhat valid, but not as valid as you may think. First off, the truth is, plenty of freshman-admits, especially in the tough majors, aren't able to graduate in 4 years either. So I don't see why the transfers should necessarily have their curriculas predicated on a 4-year graduation cycle. Secondly, I think it's entirely fair for transfer students to at least pass the final exams of the weeders that they are skipping. Not take the classes, just take the final exams, on a P/NP basis. After all, if they know the material, then they will be able to pass all of those exams with little problem. If they don't, well, that shows that perhaps they shouldn't have been admitted. </p>

<p>In short, I think the real (if political unattainable) solution is for Berkeley to simply eliminate all weeders for everybody, and then just admit fewer students in the first place. However, as it stands, there must be attainable ways to tweak the situation to make the situation more fair to all. Like I said, I have no problem with the concept of transfer admissions, but transfer students should not be allowed to skip over weeders. What's fair is fair. If the freshman admits have to prove that they can survive weeders, then so should the transfer students.</p>

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[quote]
I probably have to "reset" my education and gpa by going to get a masters program, all of which will be harder because of the poor preparation Berkeley has given me for the real world or for real education where they can test more and expect more.

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<p>Sorry, but what do you mean by this? I see successful Cal grads in all kinds of graduate programs.</p>

<p>There's one posting directly above you.</p>

<p>ok enough! please. i'm sick of this topic. lets face it. berkeley is one of the best schools in freaking country. the crackhead senior who can't count shouldn't have made this thread because most of his reasons were bs. now stop posting and discouraging other high school seniors and people trying to transfer there from doing so. its irresponsible and wrong</p>

<p>I agree!!!</p>

<p>GentlemanandScholar: CollegeSenior has his own opinions about Berkeley, that doesn't make him a troll. -_- From what I can see, many people have their own opinions about Berkeley, yet, they aren't trolls are they?</p>

<p>Some schools are better than others in specific areas. Yes that's true.</p>

<p>Why people comparing Stanford/Ivies to Berkeley? Each school has their own method for giving a proper education. From what I see, we can't rely on statistical data to tell us exactly what goes on at an university. If you want to know what goes on at a university, ask someone who attends it. </p>

<p>Instead of bashing the poster [or other universities for that matter], just acknowledge his post and post your own experiences. [BTW, for those of you who are bashing/supporting Ivies/Stanford, have you attended them? If not, then you really can't give an accurate comparison between Berkeley and Ivies/Stanford].</p>

<p>I read CollegeSenior's post and am still applying to Berkeley. I acknowledge the fact that he'd some issues with Berkeley, and I think it's good that people show us the different views of each university. All universities have their problems. Face it, universities aren't going to tell us: Oh yeah, did you know that we have this huge problem with our teachers?, etc. Which is why the STUDENTS who attend would give an accurate viewpoint on the issues with the school. For those who attend Berkeley, isn't there some things that Berkeley could do to improve the undergrad experience? There should be because not all schools are perfect [as I mentioned above].</p>

<p>ilovecalifornia/endrottning: if you're sick of this topic, then why are you reading/posting on it? I'm guessing you can't deal with people who have viewpoints different than yours. </p>

<p>The thread doesn't have to discourage you. You read it and just acknowledge it. I've read this thread and i'm still applying to Berkeley.</p>

<p>He's not a troll because he doesn't like berkeley, he's a troll because he starts 8 thousand topics talking about how stupid cal students are, how berkeley is full of dangerous minorites and gays, how aweful everything, how there's nothing to do, and hijacks threads that are meant to be possitive for people who actually like it here. And by your logic no two schools should ever be compared unless you've personally attended both schools, which doesn't make much sense to me. I'll never say one school is better than another for the very reason that you brought up, but that doesn't mean that schools can't be compared.</p>

<p>Let it die.</p>

<p>ok u know what</p>

<p>im sick of this topic bci want it to end. your so dumb. thats like telling someone whos sick of the government why are you protesting?</p>

<p>i'm sick of it, therefore i protest it.... </p>

<p>and let me just say that theres a difference betweeen expressing opinions and spreading lies about a great school. the **** he says doesn't make sense and i'm sorry i had to point it out but stop whining and admit it. berkeley is a great school, and anybody who doesn't think so needs to either come up with good reasons, stop complaining, or transfer.....and the person who started this topic has done neither of these options.</p>

<p>I acknowledge your opinion GentlemanandScholar. I realized what I said was illogical. </p>

<p>ilovecalifornia: ...
I assure you, I am not dumb. The point that I'm trying to get across is that: you can't force people to stop posting on this forum because "you're sick of it" and therefore command that this topic end. That doesn't make any sense. If you are sick of it and it is obvious that people are still going to continue this thread then...don't read/look/post at/on it anymore. Simple.</p>

<p>Berkeley—An Undergrad’s Great Experience.</p>

<p>I have two kids, both boys, one of whom graduated with honors from Cornell in 2002 and the other from Berkeley with honors in 1999. The Cornell grad told me about this web site. In the week or so that I’ve been a lurker I have been astonished at the hostility displayed by a few posters toward Berkeley.</p>

<p>These hostile posters fall into a number of categories. One denigrates all aspects of Berkeley, refusing to acknowledge the many measures of its faculty’s superiority. This critic also seems to enjoy demeaning Berkeley undergrads, generalizing from the bottom quarter--those admitted with lesser grades and test scores to fulfill Berkeley’s state mandate to be accessible to a wide range of students. Another, reluctantly concedes the excellence of Berkeley’s graduate departments (often without acknowledging just how highly ranked virtually all of them are), but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching. Finally, other critics cite the U.S. News rankings, evidently oblivious to their bias against public universities as well as their internal inconsistencies. Re private school bias consider the September 23, 1996 letter from Gerhard Caspar, President of Stanford, to the editor of U.S. News. He wrote: “Let me offer as prima facie evidence [of the absurdity of the rankings] two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America—one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27.” Re the internal inconsistency of the rankings, for years U.S. News ranked only two undergraduate departments, Business and Engineering, and had Berkeley in the top five in both. (One year first in Business and third in Engineering). At the same time the magazine placed Berkeley’s Ph.D. programs at the very top, yet ranked the school as a whole in the 20’s in the category “National Universities”.</p>

<p>With the forgoing digression I will write about my older son’s experience at Berkeley in the late 90’s. He grew up in Santa Cruz, California surfing once or twice a day year round. He was a good if unfocused high school student. His initial inclination was to go to UC San Diego, a fine school, where surf was available five minutes from class, but as parents we hoped he would attend Berkeley because of our sense that if offered opportunities few places could match (and where he could still surf, though in San Francisco 30 minutes away). </p>

<p>Belying the stereotype for public universities, our son had several small classes as a freshman, honors physics, a freshman philosophy seminar and a math class that was one step beyond calculus. He also had his share of large survey classes. By the end of the year he had no more sense of what he wanted to do than he had in high school.</p>

<p>In the Fall of his sophomore year he took introductory Chemistry. There were several hundred students in the class, what you would find at most major research universities, public or private, including Harvard (though not Chicago or Princeton). The professor was a renowned scientist. He was also an exceptional lecturer who regularly taught beginning Chemistry. His lectures were so outstanding, so inspirational, that they led my son to major in Chemistry.</p>

<p>There are College Insider posters who seem to believe that if you are a great researcher you must not be a good teacher. There is no basis for this and it makes no logical sense. If anything the opposite is often true. Top professors can infuse their lectures with the excitement and possibilities of new science and scholarship and this can be contagious. Berkeley is filled with such professors, many of whom actually seek out undergraduates. Consider Alex Filippenko, one of the top astrophysicists in the world. Filippenko regularly teaches a lower division introductory astronomy class that fulfills a breadth requirement and is therefore taken by many non-majors. He is a wildly popular lecturer. </p>

<p>In his junior year, now majoring in chemistry, my son received class credit for work in a professor’s lab. He was at the bottom of the totem pole, below post docs, grad students and senior undergrads. However, the professor was accessible to all the students, often discussing chemistry with my son in the lab or over a beer or pizza at off-campus gatherings. In addition to this professor’s mentoring, my son became close to a number of outstanding grad students. They were invaluable to his education teaching him, from a student’s perspective, much about what it takes to do independent research in chemistry. One of these grad students, a woman, was of particular help. She was an MIT graduate who had her pick of schools and who chose Berkeley not only because of the quality of the Chemistry Department, but because with its significant group of women professors she perceived it as particularly hospitable to women.</p>

<p>Given the stature of Berkeley’s Chemistry Department it seems that everybody who is anybody in the world of Chemistry comes through the Department at one time or another offering a lecture or seminar. Berkeley’s faculty of course does the same. My son attended many of these and some of his best learning came from them.</p>

<p>My son had a great upper division experience. He took a broad and difficult array of classes. Some were large. But others were seminars and in those he got to know the professors. In one small class, taught by a young woman budding superstar who won every award available to a young scientist, the professor approached my son in a campus common area with a cup of coffee and proceeded to shoot the breeze with him for half an hour. </p>

<p>At the same time my son received his bachelor’s degree in May, 1999, a top grad student in the department received his Ph.D. This grad student accepted an offer to teach at Harvard without going through the customary step of the post-doc. He knew my son had done well and recruited him to go East in his new lab.</p>

<p>I do not believe my son could have received a better education and better preparation for grad school at any other institution, public, private, Ivy, big or small. He went on to do exceptionally well as a grad student at Harvard, receiving several fellowships on the way to his June, 2004 Ph.D. One of these was a National Science Foundation Graduate Fellowship. His receipt of the NSF award led me to look at these fellowships more closely in the years 2000-2002. There are many measures of the excellence of Berkeley’s faculty—including the number of McArthur Fellows, Nobel Prize, National Medal of Science, Guggenheim Fellowship and National Science Foundation Young Investigators Award winners, and National Academy of Science and National Academy of Engineering members. However NSF winners are grad students. The NSF Fellowships are awarded to graduating seniors or first year grad students mostly in the traditional sciences and engineering, with a few in the social sciences. About 1000 were granted each year from 2000-2002. They are “portable” in the sense that a winner can take the fellowship to any school of his or her choosing. During these years four schools dominated the places where NSF winners chose to attend, together enrolling about 1/3 of the winners. These four were MIT, Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard. The numbers are astounding. For example in 2002 MIT had 112, Berkeley 93, Stanford 78 and Harvard 72. No other school even reached 30. I kid you not. Cornell was next with 27. Close to Cornell were Princeton with 23 and the University of Washington with 22. (Some others—Georgia Tech-19, Cal Tech-17, The University of Wisconsin-17, The University of Illinois-17, Chicago-15, Yale-12, Duke and Rice-11, Northwestern-8, Columbia-7 and Penn-4. Other University of California campuses did relatively well. Davis had 19, the medical center at UC San Francisco-17, UCLA-14, Santa Barbara-13 and San Diego-11.) As to the schools that produced the most undergrads who received NSF awards, Harvard had 42, MIT 35, Berkeley 34, Stanford 25, Cornell 23, Michigan 20, Texas-Austin 19, Illinois and Princeton 18 and Cal Tech 17. Everybody else followed.</p>

<p>If some of you have gotten this far and wonder why my younger son went to Cornell, that too has a Berkeley dimension and it provides yet another example of a great researcher open to all students. Briefly, from the time my younger son was little he was fascinated with herpetology, which developed into a desire to study evolutionary biology. When he was a freshman in high school he wrote to the country’s leading academic herpetologist, then a professor at Berkeley. This professor invited my son and me to his lab on a Saturday morning (Berkeley is 75 miles from our home) where he proceeded to spend two hours talking to my 14 year old boy and taking him through Berkeley’s vertebrate zoology collections. My son stayed in touch with this professor and when he left Berkeley for Cornell my son followed him (and had him as his advisor). By the way, Cornell is fantastic in biology.</p>

<p>Berkeley may not be for everybody. But for bright focused undergrads it offers extraordinary opportunities. It also happens to be in a great place. My older son loved the restaurants, clubs, and goings on in Berkeley and neighboring San Francisco.</p>

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but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching.

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<p>If I have to imagine that this was directed at me.</p>

<p>Would you like some evidence? I have a mountain of evidence to back this assertion up. I would note that this is not a 'fringe' position, but one that had been noted time and time again by numerous observers.</p>

<p>Perhaps the most definitive work on the subject is the Boyer Report</p>

<p>*
"Undergraduates Too Often Shortchanged in the Past
Nevertheless, the research universities have too often failed, and continue to fail, their undergraduate populations. Tuition income from undergraduates is one of the major sources of university income, helping to support research programs and graduate education, but the students paying the tuition get, in all too many cases, less than their money’s worth. An undergraduate at an American research university can receive an education as good or better than anything available anywhere in the world, but that is not the normative experience. Again and again, universities are guilty of an advertising practice they would condemn in the commercial world. Recruitment materials display proudly the world-famous professors, the splendid facilities and the ground-breaking research that goes on within them, but thousands of students graduate without ever seeing the world-famous professors or tasting genuine research. Some of their instructors are likely to be badly trained or even untrained teaching assistants who are groping their way toward a teaching technique; some others may be tenured drones who deliver set lectures from yellowed notes, making no effort to engage the bored minds of the students in front of them. </p>

<p>Many students graduate having accumulated whatever number of courses is required, but still lacking a coherent body of knowledge or any inkling as to how one sort of information might relate to others. And all too often they graduate without knowing how to think logically, write clearly, or speak coherently. The university has given them too little that will be of real value beyond a credential that will help them get their first jobs. And with larger and larger numbers of their peers holding the same paper in their hands, even that credential has lost much of its potency." *</p>

<p><a href="http://naples.cc.sunysb.edu/Pres/boyer.nsf/webform/overview%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://naples.cc.sunysb.edu/Pres/boyer.nsf/webform/overview&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Consider this quote from Thomas Sowell:</p>

<p>*
"The image of a state university, as a place where those unable to afford a pricey private college can nevertheless get a good education, applies less and less to flagship universities like the University of Texas at Austin, the University of California at Berkeley, or the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. These are places whose main output is research, not undergraduate education. </p>

<p>During my years as a tenured faculty member at UCLA, I never saw a junior faculty member whose contract was not renewed because he was not a good teacher. But I saw many who were terminated because their research was not of the quantity or quality that was expected -- regardless of how good they were at teaching. It was strictly publish or perish. </p>

<p>UCLA was not at all unique in this. It is common at both state and private universities for the "teacher of the year" award to be regarded by some as the kiss of death. That is because so many people who have received this award have also been terminated. </p>

<p>Good teaching takes up time -- in preparation for class and in student conferences -- which reduces the time available for research. A professor at the University of Michigan put it bluntly: "Every minute I spend in an undergraduate classroom is costing me money and prestige." </p>

<p>Parents and taxpayers may not understand what their state universities are doing, but those inside these institutions know all too well what pays off and what doesn't. Nor is there anything wrong with research in general, though much academic research is dubious. The real question is: What kinds of activities should take place in what kinds of institutions -- and at whose expense? </p>

<p>A strong case can be made for research institutions such as Brookings or RAND, and a case can be made for having some of them located on a university campus. The Hoover Institution, ranked number one in the world by "The Economist" magazine, is located on the campus of Stanford University. </p>

<p>It is a lot harder to make a case for having research institutions supported by taxpayers under the false pretense that their main job is teaching students -- as happens with flagship state universities. When students and their parents are choosing a college, they need to understand that these students are less likely to be taught by the famous professors at famous state universities than they are to be taught by graduate students who are there primarily to study under those professors. </p>

<p>Research universities could be allowed to privatize and sell off some of their operations, such as teaching. Responsibility for teaching undergraduates could thus be taken out of the hands of graduate students and junior faculty, and transferred to teaching institutions, including on-line institutions like the University of Phoenix. </p>

<p>On-line teaching may never be as good as direct contact with a professor dedicated to teaching. But it may still be an improvement over being taught by a graduate student who gives top priority to completing his own education and beginning a career. A research institution does not need a costly football stadium or student dormitories or a swimming pool. </p>

<p>What stands in the way of such rational reorganizations are inertia, false impressions, traditions and politics. As the president of Texas A & M University said of the state legislature: </p>

<p>"They pay 20 percent and control 100 percent. Why would they give that up?" </p>

<p>*
<a href="http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2292%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2292&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>How about this quote from Larry Cuban in an article in Peer Review by the AACU.</p>

<p>*
"The core of my argument is one that, I'm sure, is familiar to many of your readers. In brief, all of the modern university's structural, cultural, and economic incentives have supported research over teaching, throughout the last century. When push comes to shove, those faculty who are researchers are going to be more highly prized than those who emphasize teaching, regardless of the rhetoric. You can see it in tenure and promotion, in the way sabbaticals are set up, the way departments function, and even in the way that the elective curriculum works. All of these are, fundamentally, supportive of the research imperative." *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.aacu.org/peerreview/pr-su00/pr-su00feature1.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aacu.org/peerreview/pr-su00/pr-su00feature1.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Or this snippet from National Crosstalk
*
"But faculty members have a strong preference for research over teaching, because of its intrinsic interest, because of its clear contribution to unit reputation (which in the U.S. is a major proxy for academic quality), and because in increasingly competitive research and academic labor markets time spent on research can lead to higher grant revenue and future earnings for the individual faculty member. Consequently, faculties may arrange their workloads to limit their time investment in teaching and to maximize their time investment in research"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.highereducation.org/crosstalk/ct0799/voices0799-dill.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.highereducation.org/crosstalk/ct0799/voices0799-dill.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Or consider these findings from a commission at the University of Michigan.</p>

<p>"research universities reacted to these pressures in ways that often devalued the undergraduate mission. They relied on impersonal pedagogy that stressed knowledge–transmission over active learning, especially during the student’s early years; they devolved a growing share of teaching onto non-tenure-track faculty and ill-trained graduate students; they divorced research from teaching, and they privileged research over teaching in assessing and rewarding tenure-track faculty" *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.umich.edu/pres/undergrad/commissionreport/context.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.umich.edu/pres/undergrad/commissionreport/context.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The one caveat I would put in is that I agree that the inherent conflict between research and teaching is not confined to Berkeley. Far from it. It is a worldwide problem. Each research university handles this inherent conflict with varying degrees of success. But let's not kid ourselves here. To say that there is 'no proof' that an inherent conflict exists between research and teaching is to deliberately ignore the mountains of evidence that document that issue.</p>

<p>yay im glad i got rejected -_-</p>

<p>Well, I wouldn't go so far as to be gleeful about being rejected. </p>

<p>I agree that many of Berkeley's problems are shared by many other research universities. And in particular, I freely agree that Berkeley's combination of strong grad research + questionable undergrad commitment is still better than bad grad research + questionable undergrad commitment, which is true of quite a few other schools. In particular, I freely agree that Berkeley is clearly the best undergrad public program in the state of California, and almost certainly the best west of the Mississippi. One might make the reasonable case could be made that it's the best undergrad public program in the whole country. I suspect that Virginia might offer be better, but I agree that it's not clear which is really better at the undergraduate level.</p>

<p>Look, my point is, you have to recognize the good points and the bad points of Berkeley. Berkeley is neither all good, nor all bad.</p>

<p>It all depends on what one wants out of an undergraduate education.</p>

<p>I was bummed about being rejected from Cal. I'm now very thankful that UCLA added more building on its campus for housing. Not to mention the weather/social life/students seem more adaptable. I guess it all depends on what someone makes of it. But when you got something like "best campus food in the nation" for UCLA I think my tummy will feel better too ;).</p>

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let's not kid ourselves here. To say that there is 'no proof' that an inherent conflict exists between research and teaching is to deliberately ignore the mountains of evidence that document that issue.

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<p>And to imply that the conflict between research and teaching is quasi-universal is very irresponsible. The reality of the situation is that MOST (talking numbers here) professors at large research universities are very approachable and equally able in research and teaching. The problem is therefore almost universally confined to math, science, and engineering departments where research (and thus teaching) tends to be cutthroat. In the humanities and most social sciences, both research and teaching, tend to fluff up-making for a "better undergraduate experience" for the majority of the students in those fields.</p>

<p>Yeah, well I wish someone had told me about all this crap I had to avoid when I came here.</p>