Top 8 Reasons Not to Go to Berkeley

College_Senior · February 7, 2006, 7:15pm

As a senior here, I think I would know better than most about what the Berkeley experience is like. These are in no particular order of ranking, since each will impact different students differently.

1) Higher Tuition Costs (especially if you are out of state, I pay more than a stanford student for much larger classes and less credit hours a week).

2) Poor social environment. Half the clubs are empty or nearly empty (you have the officers and those that want to be officers, i.e. Resume Whores). They boot you off campus after first year so you're suppose to befriend people on your floor (about 12 people) or your building (maybe about 50). If you are very selective socially, then you're out of luck. VERY cliquish social community (The biggest groups are the Asian American Association, and Asian something or other, and then you have a bunch of much smaller groups). People in clubs are nice but you'll probably never get to know them very well.

3) Huge classes. Even upper division, problems with the budget have made classes generally large, impersonal and boring.

4) Poor quality peers. This is subjective but most of the people you meet will be not smart and many times will slow down the class by asking dumb questions. They are the "cream" of the crop of the 2nd worst high school system in the US, where 1/3 of all students drop out, and it really shows many times.

5) Poor opportunities for generalists. If you are very determined and know what you want to be, you might get the internship or job you're going for. If you're tring to figure it out, good luck, because they are a ton of applicants for every position you apply for and getting behind is easy, when everyone else has specialized. Its really a bit more cut-throat environment than I have heard from my other friends at ivies and University of Texas.

6) Many poor quality teachers. This is a research institution and it shows, many professors are just poor quality and seem to care more about research than teaching. Some test you on new stuff not on any of the homeworks they assigned, just because they can. I thought I had left having to consider teacher politics to high school, but you really have to be careful picking teachers, as some classes will be fairer and harder relative to the professor and not the class. Be especially wary of "visiting" professors and professors who have never taught a class before.

7) CRAPPY housing. If paying highly inflated prices for really crapp housing is your thing, then berkeley will suit you. After the 1st year of paying for extremely overpriced, unairconditioned housing shared with a great deal of idiots, the University sends you out to live in extremely overpriced, unairconditoned housing. Which is only a slight improvement because some areas of berkeley have very high crime.

8) Shortened semester (due to budget problems) means NO dead days for finals and cheapened academic expereince. Thats a slight exaggeration, we had one dead day last semester, which is next to nothing. So not only will class selection be dominated by politics (picking fair professors), but also your final schedule because having a few extra days between your finals really is a lifesaver for your sleep schedule and your grades. I think we had a week longer semester when I was a freshman here with 2-3 dead days, which is still failry short because we had a month long winter break. Now its even cheaper than that. Libraries close earlier now as well and they are the ONLY quiet place to study on really.

9) Generall rude people and students. People talking in the library very loudly, playing music too loudly in the dorms, etc. The trash really gets into berkeley and it cheapens the whole experience. The people you meet that aren't students are generally annoying uber-liberals that refuse to tolerate other viewpoints and act particularly righteous.

The positives about Berkeley is the brand name (not that big a deal IMO since there are like 8000 berkeley grads a year), the relative quickness in which you can get a degree (just get credits and go), the very good grad program which sometimes spills over when you have a good graduate student instructor, and the relative value for in-staters (the UC system in general is a good deal if you only spend like 10k a year total for housing and tuition and are on a business or engineering track).

However, if you're like me and a lot of friends and want to use college as a growing experience, I would avoid Berkeley, completely.

system · February 7, 2006, 9:51pm

Agree with #4.

I can't stop complaining about my lab partners. Uber-stupid annoying *. Period.
When asked to draw a diagram in a BIOLOGY lab, they would try to make a artistic masterpiece instead of spending time on tackling other problems. what the *?! Also, they do not understand why a question is asked the way it is in the lab. They cling on every trivial (and most of the time irrelevant) details, and try to write an essay for every short answer problem. They just don't get the "essence" of the questions, which really *es the * outta me. Such problems are especially prevalent among MCB majors. Sorry to "sterotype", but they are.

A note about #2:
And yes.....many of the clubs are just so damn lame. Omfg......clubs like EMBS and Tau Beta Pi are ultra-superficial and the people are just so faux-nice. I don't understand how a 20+ year old adult can act so childish and retarded.....I mean....Jesus....I'm out of words. For example, they just pretend like they are having sooooo much fun in those laammmmmeee icebreakers. well....if they are really having fun...then...well....ah...... w t f...?!

I'll get flamed but whatever. Let's face the truth guys

sweetdreams87 · February 7, 2006, 10:46pm

Agreed! And I still have three and a half years of this to undergo.

danielsjang · February 7, 2006, 11:10pm

you've definitely deterred some prospective UCB-ers

thanks for the heads up

bcp05 · February 8, 2006, 12:38am

wow, im gonna have to say have everyone on this thread should not come to have berkeley in the first play. i have loved my experience here so far and just like in the real world you have to find your own niche at berkeley. it can be an intimidating place, but those who succeed are those who actively search out their own social life and academic career. the fact of the matter here is that the three people above me are bitter, socially awkward people who hang out in their room on saturday (and friday, thursday, and tuesday...) nights while everybody else goes out. they'll find that they will experience the same problems they have now in the real world. obviously, no one will ever be up to their superior intellects. furthermore, for the kid above me, basing your college choice on the experience of 3 bitter dejects is generally not considered an effective way to plan out your next 4 years. visit all the schools you are interested in and make the decision on where you feel most comfortable.

system · February 8, 2006, 1:07am

Whooops. I never knew bcp05 is living next door to me. He knows I stay in my own room all day long !!!! oh ****!!!

DRab · February 8, 2006, 2:16am

<ol>
<li><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/finaid/pdf/06FAOhdbook.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.stanford.edu/dept/finaid/pdf/06FAOhdbook.pdf</a></li>
</ol>

Stanford estimates that, without any help, you'll pay about 45,000, plus transportation. That's about what you'll pay for Berkeley from out of state. If you're paying sticker price out of state to Berkeley or sticker price to Stanford, it's going to be very similar, although you probably won't be in housing all four years at Berkeley, whereas most students are at Stanford. If you're getting aid, though, Stanford is probably the better deal, or, as most students probably get some very small amount of aid, it's probably the same, cost wise. If you are in state, and not getting much aid, Berkeley is an amazing deal in state, and most of the students who are going to attend Berkeley *are*are from California.

The less credit hours- who's stopping you from taking more credit hours? Also, how can you compare a school on school on the quarter system with a school on the semester system?

<ol>
<li> Some clubs are filled with resume whores and a few passionate people. The clubs are much smaller portions of the campus that actually care about a subject. Of course they're going to be small. Students are guaranteed two years of housing now, and I'm not sure how many who want to stay on for longer get to, but I bet a fairly large amount. Do you think that at other schools everybody knows each other? They have the same deal- you meet people in your classes, on your floor, in your building, where you eat, in clubs, through friends, and randomly. If you're very selective socially anywhere, you're out of luck. Is this different from a small LAC to a big public school to some elite Ivy-like or Ivy school? The cliques you refer to must be people finding their various niches. Is Berkeley the only school like this?</li>
</ol>

3) If you choose boring classes, that's not the school's fault. I've managed to only take classes I'm interested in so far, and plan on continuing that. Class size, yes, is significantly larger than other schools, although it varies by department.

<ol>
<li>Yeah, the quality of peers could be higher, this is true. However, who you hang out with greatly affects the quality of your peers. Your arguments many kids do come from good schools, so the picture you paint is very harsh. Who says California's public high school system is the 2nd worst in the nation? Also, what about the students from private high schools? </li>
<li>I'm not sure about this, as I don't have much experience here, but it would again seem like any desirable thing has other people attempting to get it, like every other school might have. Perhaps Berkeley is bad in this respect, but academically speaking, it provides a lot of opportunity for breadth, outside of perhaps highly structured subprograms (engineering and business, for example).</li>
<li>This seems to be a fairly valid assessment in general, although it should be noted that there are many great teachers here as well. The poor teachers only become a problem if they happen to teach a class which you are required to take. Otherwise, just as if the class is uninteresting, I'd say drop it. I did that with a class I'm required to take (although at any time), and am very glad that I did it. Some people in sequences that essentially have to be fulfilled aren't so lucky, though. Some guest profs are amazing, though. I'd say be equally cautious of any professor. Perhaps this general thing is more prevalent in the sciences than outside of the sciences. I bet such. Like many of your criticisms, the ones you make at the end of this point seem to be at other schools, but perhaps this one is more prominent here.</li>
<li>The dorms here are nicer than other places, less nice than some places. Also, the housing scene varies greatly. The difference between life in Bowles, Foothill, an old-style building in the units, a mini-suite in the units, and Clark Kerr is HUGE. Some areas of Berkeley do have very high crime, as it is an urban center. It's a valid criticism.</li>
<li>Shortened semester? Shorter than what? How is this bad? Who is complaining about a longer break? I think 14 weeks of class is plenty. Winter finals are before the break, not after (like at some places such as Harvard). I quite like the schedule here. Also, depending on one's final schedule, one might have days off prior to any finals. There are quiet places to study, and the library hours are extended during finals. </li>
<li>There are rude people here, sure, but I think this reflects a general societal trend. Do other schools lack rude people? Also, depending on where you're from and what you're used to, something that someone sees as perfectly un-rude might seem incredibly rude to you. The homogenous, dogmatic liberal viewpoint is a valid criticism, although it's nothing like what people make it out to be (packs of hippies dancing naked and smoking weed in class or something).</li>
</ol>

So, to sum it up, if you are coming here from out of state and getting little aid, you should probably come here only if you love the place. As a whole, the population seems less passionate than other elite schools, many of the classes are larger than they should be, the quality of the peers is lower than it should be, some teachers are more interested in research and scholarship than teaching, and the campus lacks a unified feel that some other schools tend to develop well. However, many of these criticisms can be avoided depending on who your peer group is and what departments you tend to take your classes in, and many of these criticisms exist at other larger, research driven schools.

Berkeley is largely what you make of it. Sometimes, chance just happens to make it difficult, as you don't live with anyone you strike up a great friendship with or have many bad experiences in a row. Berkeley has many new experiences available to students, and the Bay Area is a great place to be, offering much to those locally. It's a great place to grow, but like anywhere, not for everyone. If you prefer more personal attention, if you prefer to have your professor approach you and not have to approach your professor, perhaps an LAC is your best bet, or a generally more fostering environment.

Anyone using threads like this as considering as to where they go should get honest complete criticisms of other schools, as well. It would be unfair to have a list of the worst aspects of a school as told by one of its students compared to no list about the worst aspects of another student's school because the student will not openly criticize the school.

sakky · February 8, 2006, 3:03am

Around CC, I'm a fairly well-known critic of the UC system in general and Berkeley in particular, so I think I ought to weigh in here. My issues with Berkeley are well documented and to save the trouble of retyping everything, y'all can search through them.

However, I would have to say that in fairness to Berkeley, all complaints simply elicit the question of what your alternatives are. Simply put, for many undergrad students there, Berkeley really is the best realistic choice that they have, either because they can't get into a better school, can't afford a better school, need to stay local, or some combination of all 3. Hence, I would defend Berkeley by saying that it is clearly the best public school in the state and perhaps the nation. With apologies to Alexandre, I think the only public school that can really match Berkeley at an undergraduate and professional level is Virginia, and certainly there is no comparison to be made at the PhD level.

{To digress, let's give credit where credit is due. Berkeley is indisputably one of the finest schools in the world from which to get your PhD.}

However, I agree that at the undergraduate level, Berkeley has serious matchup problems with the elite private schools, particularly HYPSMC, such that if you are coming in from OOS, it is hard to find a reason to recommend Berkeley. Of course that presumes that you could get into one of those schools. The truth is, there are plenty of students at Berkeley who have no prayer at getting into one of the elite private schools. I would, in particular, point to the many transfer students at Berkeley. It is relatively easy to get into Berkeley as a community college transfer student, compared to transferring into an elite private school from a community college. Hence, I believe that the USNews selectivity rating of Berkeley is overstated, because that deals with only freshmen admissions, and doesn't account for transfers. The upshot is that it is relatively easy to get into Berkeley as an undergrad (either as a freshmen or a transfer), relative to getting into the elite private schools.

So what that means is that for many Berkeley undergrads, Berkeley is the best they can do. This is particularly so for that 'hole' of in-state middle-class students who are too rich to get significant financial aid, and not rich enough to not be thrifty with their money. For example, there are a good number of students at Berkeley who aren't good enough to get into Stanford and who couldn't have afforded it anyway.

Nevertheless, that's not an excuse for Berkeley not to get better. I believe that Berkeley could benefit through some reforms, in particular, by tightening admissions requirements, reforming curriculum, modifying academic restrictions, creating an honors college, and the like.

avoidingwork · February 8, 2006, 3:07am

lol. subject is 'top 8 reasons' and the original post lists 9 reasons. College Senior is not only a bit bitter, but doesn't appear to merit dissing his peers for not being smart.

As DRab indicated above, college is what you make of it.

greatestyen · February 8, 2006, 3:46am

ive been browsing this board for a while but this is the first time when i've actually found a post worthy of my time...

that said, anybody who SERIOUSLY complains about the berkeley "undergraduate experience" is being illogical and is clearly not cut out for academic life

yes, the classes are huge and the people are dumb and self-centric?

so?

you have the smartest faculty and the best library system on the planet (you can request books from other UCs....)

if that's not your thing then you have some of the greatest research labs in the world (if you're into science....)

if you can't cut it then you can't cut it and should give up.....we live in a capitalist society and people who want stuff the most (and are destined for it) should get preference over the weeds in the weeders.

i just dont respect people who complain about a school and spend so much of their time just talking it down. idiotic in my opinion. if you're on this board and you're a berkeley undergraduate then you're not taking full advantage of berkeley. (this applies to me too)

so maybe you should take a good look in the mirror, College Senior.

DRab · February 8, 2006, 3:53am

Well, greatestyen, I agree with you somewhat, but college senior has some valid points. There are undergraduate experiences quite different than Berkeley's which are better suited for some, for instance. Some people would prefer smaller classes, or students who are not self-centric (although the latter is fairly hard to find). You do mention two incredible aspects of Berkeley, well three (not that everyone can get a research positiong (as is the case with any lab)), but it is impossible to do everything at Berkeley. That's another great thing about it- there's so much great stuff, you have to choose how to spend your time. Some people don't have this luxury, or so many attractive alternatives. College senior has one post on the board, and sakky is trying to improve the school and inform students of a more real picture of Berkeley. I guess I'm trying to inform people, too. Is that so wrong? Oh, the academic life can vary a lot from college to college (lectureships to full time tenured profs at reasearch institutions to ccs to LACs).

sakky · February 8, 2006, 3:00pm

[quote]
anybody who SERIOUSLY complains about the berkeley "undergraduate experience" is being illogical and is clearly not cut out for academic life

[/quote]

Well, I'll put it to you this way. Calkidd is a guy who used to hang around CC a lot (haven't seen him around much lately). He went to Berkeley for undergrad. And he complained about the experience a LOT. Nevertheless, he is in graduate school at Harvard. Are you saying that he is not cut out for academic life? The Harvard graduate adcom seemed to think he was pretty cut out for it, for why would they have admitted him otherwise?

I have more examples. I know quite a few Berkeley alumni who are now in various grad programs at MIT, many of whom report rather bitter and negative experiences with Berkeley. Many of them basically feel that they got into MIT in spite of the Berkeley experience, not because of it, and that they might have had a better experience had they gone somewhere else.

[quote]
if you can't cut it then you can't cut it and should give up.....we live in a capitalist society and people who want stuff the most (and are destined for it) should get preference over the weeds in the weeders.

[/quote]

This is the sort of attitude that I cannot countenance. Not only is it excessively cruel, but the fact is, this isn't even the way that Berkeley operates in general. For example, the Berkeley Haas MBA program doesn't go around weeding its students. But why not - after all, it's a BUSINESS school . You would think that if any school at Berkeley would adhere to a supposedly-capitalistic practice like weeding, it would be the business school. Yet the fact is, the Haas MBA program is pretty lenient when it comes to grading and curricula (as most B-school are). As long as you do the work, you're going to graduate. Grades don't really matter very much, and the program basically serves as a 2-year social networking club (as most B-schools do). It's actually quite hard to flunk out. Yet the fact is, Haas is one of the top B-schools in the nation.

The same thing could be said for the Berkeley doctoral economics program. Again, economics is inherently intertwined with capitalism. So why doesn't the Berkeley doctoral program engage in heavy weeding of its PhD students? Yet I am not aware of anybody saying that the Berkeley econ doctoral program engages in any more weeding and attrition than do econ doctoral programs at other peer schools. The aim of the doctoral program is for everybody to complete their PhD's. That obviously never happens because some people can't pass their quals or find out that they can't complete the research, etc. However, the point is, the program doesn't have a reputation for excessive bloodiness and cruelty.

The point is, you don't need to weed to have an excellent program. Berkeley itself proves this through its graduate programs.

Furthermore, the weeding is highly uneven. The fact is, plenty of people in Berkeley engineering perform poorly enough that they find themselves expelled out of Berkeley entirely. Yet the fact is, lots of them could have survived had they simply chosen a different major. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten top grades, but at least they would have stayed in good academic standing. Let's face it. A guy who gets a 1.9 in EECS (and is thus put on probation and on the road to expulsion) probably worked harder than the guy with a 2.1 in some creampuff gut major. The right thing to do would be to help that EECS guy transition to a major that is more suitable for him, or at least transfer to some other school. But not only will Berkeley not do that, now Berkeley is actually trying to prevent that from happening (by requiring that all transfers to L&S, including from the CoE, have 3.0+'s and by placing him on formal probation which is a huge scarlet letter for other schools). So the guy showed that he isn't cut out for a Berkeley EECS degree. Fine. But why do you have to trash his entire academic career? Let him go to some other major or some other school with a clean slate.

As a case in point, MIT uses the concept of 'hidden grades', where all of your failing freshmen grades are not reported on your official transcript. So if you have a disastrous first year at MIT and fail all your classes, you will officially be given no grades. MIT will keep a secret internal record of all of your true grades, but MIT will refuse to report them on your official transcript. Hence, MIT preserves your chances of transferring to some other school if you find out that MIT is just too hard for you. Caltech does a similar thing with its 'shadow grades' concept. Why can't Berkeley do something like that, at least with its engineering program?

[quote]
i just dont respect people who complain about a school and spend so much of their time just talking it down. idiotic in my opinion. if you're on this board and you're a berkeley undergraduate then you're not taking full advantage of berkeley. (this applies to me too)

so maybe you should take a good look in the mirror, College Senior.

[/quote]

See, this is exactly the problem right here. Lots of people at Berkeley simply want to shoot the messenger, ignore the message, under the guise that there can't possibly be anything wrong with Berkeley. Yet, the only way that problems ever get fixed is when people point them out. If nobody ever complained about anything, nothing would ever get better.

IzzieBear · February 8, 2006, 4:13pm

<ol>
<li>Can't really argue with you there. Tuition is certainly rising at an incredible pace, and if you're an out of state applicant, you're not going to get the same deal as those with California residency, period. However, if you can afford Stanford without assistance, you can certainly afford Berkeley out of state and without aid. It really just comes down to how much you or your parents are willing to dish out - harsh and general, but oh-so very true. We've had numerous conversations about Berkeley's so-called inability to meet the needs of many suffering applicants, and I would rather not get into it. But really, this "reason" can and should be applied to UCDavis, UCLA, and UCSB, and so on. Not solely Berkeley's problem.</li>
<li>Honestly, many of you will probably pounce on me for this comment, but I truly think that everyone who feels that Berkeley lacks an appropriate social life simply isn't trying hard enough. I'm going to say this once, and I'm not going to harp on it again, especially because it's going to be a controversial topic on this board. Go Greek. It was one of the best decisions I have made at Cal, and it certainly doesn't hurt your social life. If you can get past the stereotypes and realize that this is Cal, and not the University of Insert Greek Heavy Southern State Here, than you should be able to successfully realize that the competition and environment present in our Greek community is not something to fear or avoid. By joining, you receive an immediate group of friends and a great support system. As far as clubs go, I can't really say much about this one because I have had an excellent experience so far. Although many of them are quite large (I'm a member of Habitat for Humanity), you are able to work closely with others in smaller groups and make a difference in the process. </li>
<li>Class size varies. If you want individualized attention your entire four years of college, don't come to Berkeley. However, if you seek your professors out, you will find that many of them are more than willing to speak to you on a one-on-one basis. Also, there is URAP, which gives you an opportunity to work side by side with a professor in your own department. </li>
<li>Berkeley is a selective, public university, so you're going to be surrounded by students that posses a fair amount of intelligence and personal merit. Of course, it varies - some people will be smarter than you, and some people will barely slip by. There are idiots all around the world - you will probably be working with many of them once you graduate from Berkeley. Tis life, my dear friends.</li>
<li>Again, seek and you shall find. If you can't take the time to truly uncover all the opportunities Berkeley obviously has to offer, than perhaps you aren't meant to discover them in the first place. </li>
<li>Depends on what department you are in. So far, I have had wonderful professors that are truly dedicated to what they teach. However, I am in the humanities, so that could have some sort of effect on the kind of education I am receiving. </li>
<li>We live in California, go figure. Some dorms are nice - the unit's mini suites, foothill and clark kerr are nothing to complain about. Yes, housing is expensive but what can you do? I find that being in a sorority provides me with a great deal after I'm out of the dorms - I get to live in a mansion, in a very generously sized room, and eat food prepared by personal chefs - all for about $7,000 a year. Again, there are options all around you. </li>
<li>If you can't deal with the pressure of having to juggle classes and final exams, then maybe you should reconsider your ability to be a student at a cut-throat university. Yes, finals week is murderous, but it's something we all have to get through, and I have found that the stress often brings students closer together. I have yet to come in contact with the menacing, mean-spirited Berkeley students everyone likes to talk about. </li>
<li>I'm sorry you've met the nasties of Berkeley, but give it a rest. As far as the whole political standpoint goes, I actually know and am friends with the same amount of conservatives as liberals. Just throwing that out there. </li>
</ol>

Maybe I have just had a pleasant experience so far, but I really do pity someone who has been here four years and still has this much to complain about. I do agree with some of your points a bit, but I also wonder if you would have been happy anywhere. Please don't try to detour people from coming to Berkeley with such generalized issues. Berkeley is a great institution but these problems do not apply to everyone that attends. Your personality and ability to socialize, learn, work, and adapt are enormous factors.

GentlemanandScholar · February 8, 2006, 8:37pm

First, this person is a troll and I am willing to bet my Pell grant that he or she has never spent a single day at Berkeley. Whoever wrote this is bitter. Maybe someone who has been rejected? Who knows. But I'm hear, so I'll go through the list using my personal experience as a Senior at Cal.

<ol>
<li>I pay nothing, so I really can't empathize with the troll on this one, but I can say, as others have already done, that somthing like 85 percent of students are instate, which is way, way, way cheaper than stanford.</li>
</ol>

2.I never understood this complaint. Maybe its because I'm from a small town, but to me Berkeley (and the bay area) is a meca of things to do. I've seen the best concerts of my life here, been to the best parties of my life, seen and talked with many of my idols (mostly writers), and had a basically wild, kick a.s.s. time. If you're bored with Berkeley, you're bored with life!

<ol>
<li>Some are some aren't. So what? If you're in a lecture course where the prof is spending the hour talking about something, why does it matter if there are 10 people sitting behind you or 200? Want smaller classes? Take a seminar! Better yet, go bearfacts and look at a class schedule, find smaller, interesting classes and take them as your electives. </li>
<li>I've had classes with insanely smart people and classes with people that aren't as smart, but everyone here is smart. People think that just because someone got all As in highschool and had good SATs that they are going to come off as a rocket scientist, but some people don't work that way. You have to get to know them and see how that brain of theirs works. Usnews rates Berkeley as the 13th (I think) most selective school in the country, so if the students are dumb here, imagine how stupid those poor slobs are at those other 2000 schools that are less selective with who they let in!</li>
</ol>

5.I don't even know what you're talking about here. How is it the schools fault that you don't know what you want to do? And why should Cal be blamed that nobody wants to hire you or even let you work there for free? I've had payed jobs as well as internships, so maybe it has more to do with the quality of the applicant and less to do with the school you happen to attend.

6.Again, I've had amazing teachers and flat out bad teachers, but so what? That is the case at every school in the world. Berkeley has no monopoly on bad teachers.

<ol>
<li>I'll give you this one.</li>
<li>Poor guy. You mean they want you to take multiple tests in the same week? Where do they get the nerve? Its a wonder that all the idiots that you have classes with are somehow able to pull it off, isn't it?</li>
</ol>

9.People are nice to me. Maybe its just you.

d-a-d · February 8, 2006, 11:21pm

I think the Ivy's and Stanford are kind of whimpy, overrated undergrad schools. There is an excellent article in The Atlantic about the serious problems with Harvard's undergraduate program.

Also, there are more than a few people at the Ivys and Stanford who either could not get into or survive academically at UC Berkeley.

Berkeley is not for the weak of heart or mind. It is a great school. If a student thrives at Berkeley, especially in the engineering programs, they will probably outperform their peers who attend the Ivys and Stanford.

I think the people who buy into the Ivy League, Stanford myths of elitism are the same ones who would buy "dog turds" for $1,000 a pound if they were sold in a Tiffany box.

College_Senior · February 8, 2006, 11:34pm

I'll respond to the important points.

Gentleman>>>>

1) In-state its a moderately good deal, but the housing is still overpriced, and for out of state its a total ripoff especially considering they raise tuition by like 25-30% on out of staters a year for the last 4 years because of incompotent state politics.

2) Not everyone likes concerts or parties. Most people know that college parties are definitely not a good way to develop lasting relationship.

3) You have to take boring classes. There are things such as major requirements. And there are indeed politics. One time we had a Chem 3b teacher that was "punished" for teaching 112 and then gave above the college quotas for A's so they would stop him from teaching Chem 3b. That was a good case, in most cases it usually hurts the student.

4) Anyone who knows game theory will understand why berkeley is "selective." It accepts a lot of people and a lot of people apply thinking they can get in wheras they wouldn't apply to other selective schools because they think they can't get in. USNews rankings are utter bull, colleges have incentives to do dumb things like try to increase the number of people who apply to make them look more selective. These things do nothing to contribute to the school environment.

People are dumb here. Worst, many only take 3 classes a semester. Chem 3b, then 2 easy knockoff classes. Which means they spend like 20 hours a week studying for one class. I've met tons of idiots with great gpa's but generally suck in conversation.

5) Its may not be anyone's fault. Its just the state of things. There are less positions and more students because California's education system is badly run. It seems to be more than other schools, I just pointed it out.

6) For the cost and the ranking of the school, the kind of incompotent teachers I've seen should never have happened. I expect bad teachers at podunk university, but then again I would be paying much less in tuition there.

8) I'm saying some dead days would be nice, almost every other school has some dead days, some easier than others. Harvard has the whole break + a dead week. Even other big univerities such as University of Texas has a few days.

If you are trying to take some classes, and their finals are all on the same day one after another, its probably a better idea to defend your gpa and take classes with spaced out finals. This is a consequence of having less dead days with which to study and the situation.

9) You probably live in a nice area or a dorm for now. Wait until you go to South Side or have a run in with one of the many delinquents that live in and on Berkeley's streets.

I come from the South and took politeness and manners for granted until I came until the cesspool of rudeness that is Berkeley.

Izziebear>>> I acknowledged the good with the bad, but I perhaps understated that they are indeed some very good professors. But having a lack of "bad" professors is also important to me, especially considering the cost of this education.

Many people do not want to live in greek campuses, and though that seems like a good deal, there's more demand than supply.

greatestyen>>> Almost all of that affects the graduate program much more than the undergraduate. Most undergraduates will never deal with such things and I already noted that the graduate program at berkeley was MUCH better than the undergraduate.

Avoidingwork>>> I edited and didn't bother. I find your attitude typical of the liberals I meet at berkeley, argue over picayune details, but avoid the real content and the real objective arguments.

Drab>>>

1) Its still expensive considering that Berkeley invests so little into its students socially or academically. Just take classes and go.

2) 4 year dorms really help the social situation a lot, especially when you have liek 3 hours of class a week with one hour discussion. So you basically have one hour a week in which you're not expected just to sit there and listen, to meet other people otherwise. I don't know about the 2 year thing required now but when I was here it was 1 year, and if you're unlucky to not have people on the floor that are either uninterested in friendship or are not your type, you're really out of luck. The UC system has a fairly high rate of suicides and its not really suprising.

3) Most of the smaller classes are smaller for a reason, mostly because they're not as interesting or more specialized. This is true especially for the classes of the Economics and Political science which are mostly large. Once again, this is subjective, but I would put it on a whole as being a net negative about berkeley. (Most jobs, grad schools whatnot, do not care about the classes that would typically be small anyways). The economic value of the small classes you talk about is suspect.

5) California's secondary school system is ranked either 48 or 49 I believe and about 1/3 of California's high school students drop out. Its mostly due to the fact that teacher's unions make firing incompotent teachers cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the unsustainable influx of hispanic immigration. Combined with ad hoc, idiotic governing due to the ease which it takes to run propositions (Will wasting even more billions of dollars on pre-k really increase the quality of secondary education? No). The simple fact is that California's public system is a mess and is dragging UC down with it.

7) You only get one year housing when I was here and the quality is unbelievably crappy for what you pay for. 900 dollars a month for foothill in a tiny double with no air conditioning. Thats a ridiculous price by any standard.

8) The only really quiet place to study on campus is the library and extended hours are standard at all schools. The hours actually use to be longer before the budget crisis, and the 24 hour library only kicks in on the day before or during finals if I recall. So I can't go to someplace quiet the week before or 2 weeks before finals. This was especially hard on me because my previous residences all had very noisy, annoying people (which is sometimes unavoidable in certain neighborhoods). A shortened semester makes it harder to study for finals and generally cheapens the educational experience IMO. This is of course relative but considering we're only comparing berkeley to an earlier version of berkeley here, its a pretty fair comparison IMO.

I agree with you a lot on the issues at hand, but I think its only fair to inform people about the bad sides about berkeley as well whether or not they are specific to this school.

bcp05>>> lol. Berkeley does have a lot of parties. If thats your idea of socializing I guess you may enjoy the fact that classes aren't long and you can party a lot if you choose.

I'm just giving people a heads up, especially out of staters.

Please don't make the same mistake I did.

IzzieBear · February 9, 2006, 12:08am

Could you point me to the report that states that UC has a fairly high rate of student suicides?

Obviously, coming to Berkeley may have been a mistake for you. But I'm having the time of my life here. So OOS'ers and California locals, make up your own mind and choose your college experience wisely.

<3,

Izzie Bear

GentlemanandScholar · February 9, 2006, 12:11am

I still find this poster to be incredibly sketchy. For all high school kids reading this, please read senior's comments carefully and ask yourself, would this person have been happy anywhere, or is he/she just a natural complainer? Don't take what he/she says as gospel, as 100% of the comments are subjective. Yes, this is a person that had 4 bad years of college. Thats all there is to it. This person would've had a bad 4 years at any college. If you don't like concerts or famous speakers or parties or sporting events or the City, and you don't like living in populated areas, and you don't like hanging out with college age kids, and you don't working hard, and you can't impress people enough to get an unpaid internship, and you basically just don't like school, then no, Berkeley is not the place for you. However, if you generally like life and get along with people, like to work hard (and party hard) then come on down and check us out. Walk around campus and talk to people. Ask them what they think, I'm sure you'll get a much better idea of what its all about.

ShadowGuy · February 9, 2006, 12:38am

I dont think its reasonable to bash College Senior. There are a lot of great things about Berkeley. However, others can be naive and ignore the bad. People tend to get very defensive when they hear about anything negative about their college. I think he has proven number "9) Generally rude people and students".

I personally wish that I knew all this back at high school. College Senior is being informative to those still making their own decision on undergrad schools.

posterX · February 9, 2006, 12:50am

<ol>
<li>Enormous classes - any smaller univ or LAC would likely provide you with a better undergraduate education.</li>
</ol>

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