<p>Hi. I think I would fit in better at a liberal arts school like Middlebury or Wesleyan, but am terrified at turning down an Ivy for a school that most people have never heard of. How much would turning down a "name-brand" Ivy for a school like Wesleyan affect my future career and grad school options? Would I have to do more at a liberal arts school to have the same opportunities I could have just by having a Brown (or Yale, etc.) degree? Or am I overthinking it?</p>
<p>IMO, you are overthinking it. Grad schools, employers, and people familiar with colleges all know the top LACs. If you feel you will be happiest and most successful in that type of more intimate environment then go for it. My D loved the feel of a LAC from the start of her search and couldn’t be happier with her decision to attend one.</p>
<p>Ivy League schools are not all the same. Dartmouth resembles a LAC, while Cornell resembles a big state university (and parts of it are state funded).</p>
<p>Wesleyan will be known to grad. school adcoms, and employers care about experience. So yes, you’re overthinking it. Go where you feel you’d perform better academically.</p>
<p>The daughter of the President of Pomona College turned down Harvard for Carleton College.</p>
<p>Many liberal arts colleges are noted for high rate of PhD production. They are very good preparation for grad school. Within 5 years of graduating, 80% of Wesleyan grads enter graduate or professional school.
<a href=“http://web.archive.org/web/20110709013251/http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://web.archive.org/web/20110709013251/http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a></p>
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<p>Many people have never heard of Brown or Dartmouth. Many others think UPenn is a big state University. So what?</p>
<p>Swarthmore, Reed, Carleton and Grinnell have higher overall PhD production rates than any of the Ivies. In the life sciences, Carleton’s PhD production rate is about double Cornell’s. Swarthmore, Amherst, and Oberlin combined have fewer undergraduates than Harvard, but together generate more political science PhDs than any of the Ivies. Selective LACs also have excellent rates of admission to top law, medical and business schools.</p>
<p>You need to see where you actually get in first! Apply to a good variety of schools and then see if you need to have the dreaded debate over whether to turn down Harvard for Amherst ;)</p>
<p>Ivy>>>all LACs with the exception of maybe Amherst/Williams.</p>
<p>^^
Any CC poster>>>> Informative.</p>
<p>^^ Such a statement is meaningless unless you identify what you are comparing.
Pomona, Amherst, Swarthmore and Grinnell have larger endowments per student than 5 of the Ivies. There must be 10-15 LACs that have PhD production rates equal to or greater than most of the Ivy rates. A similar number of LACs would compare very well with most of the Ivies for admission rates to top medical, law, and business schools. Harvey Mudd, Pomona, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams and Haverford have 75th %ile SAT scores equal to or greater than Cornell’s and Brown’s. By mid-career, Colgate, Williams, Lehigh, and Harvey Mudd alumni earn higher average salaries than Brown, Columbia, Penn, or Yale alumni.</p>
<p>For me, what really distinguishes LACs from the Ivies is the percentage of large classes. Compare enrollment numbers for introductory classes in popular majors or for courses in the pre-med track. In these classes (which can comprise a significant part of your whole program), Ivy enrollments tend to be much higher. </p>
<p>Examples from the Princeton course offerings pages:
CHM 202 General Chemistry II 172 students
PSY 252 Social Psychology 177 students
MOL 211 Life on Earth: Chaos and Clockwork 141 students
PHY 101 Introductory Physics I 123 students
HIS 212 Europe in the World: Monarchies, Nations 152 students</p>
<p>At some LACs (Davidson for example), 0% of classes have 50 or more students.</p>
<p>The tradeoff is that LACs tend to have fewer upper division course offerings, or may have more uneven strength across departments. Check the course catalogs and schedules in your prospective majors.</p>
<p>LACs which have convenient cross-registration with a nearby research university may allow a student to get most of the usual advantages of a LAC but avoid the usual disadvantages. An obvious example is Barnard - Columbia. The four LACs in the consortium with UMass - Amherst gain access to the latter in areas where they are weak (e.g. computer science).</p>
<p>^^ Well, they’re not exactly push-overs in terms of national reputations; very few Ivies are competitive with Wesleyan for film studies or with Williams for art history (Yale being one of the few), Bowdoin for environmental science or with Middlebury for languages.</p>
<p>A sampling of course offerings in strong departments at various LACs:</p>
<p>[Anthropology</a> at Bryn Mawr](<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/anthropology/courses.html]Anthropology”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/anthropology/courses.html)
[Art</a> History at Barnard](<a href=“http://arthistory.barnard.edu/catalogue/department/art-history/courses]Art”>http://arthistory.barnard.edu/catalogue/department/art-history/courses)
[Biology</a> at Earlham](<a href=“http://www.earlham.edu/biology/the-program/]Biology”>http://www.earlham.edu/biology/the-program/)
[Chinese</a> at Middlebury](<a href=“Courses | Middlebury College”>Courses | Middlebury College)
[Computer</a> Science at Harvey Mudd](<a href=“http://www.cs.hmc.edu/program/course-descriptions/]Computer”>CS Course Descriptions | Computer Science | Harvey Mudd College)
[Economics</a> at Claremont McKenna College](<a href=“Program: Courses in Economics - Claremont McKenna College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Courses in Economics - Claremont McKenna College - Acalog ACMS™)
[English</a> at Kenyon](<a href=“http://www.kenyon.edu/x10223.xml]English”>http://www.kenyon.edu/x10223.xml)
[Environmental</a> Science at College of the Atlantic](<a href=“http://www.coa.edu/environmental-science.htm]Environmental”>http://www.coa.edu/environmental-science.htm)
[Film</a> Studies at Wesleyan](<a href=“http://www.wesleyan.edu/filmstudies/major.html]Film”>http://www.wesleyan.edu/filmstudies/major.html)
[Geology</a> at Colorado College](<a href=“http://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/dept/geology/courses/course-listing.dot]Geology”>http://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/dept/geology/courses/course-listing.dot)
[Government</a> and Legal Studies at Bowdoin (Spring)](<a href=“http://www.bowdoin.edu/government/courses/index.shtml]Government”>http://www.bowdoin.edu/government/courses/index.shtml)
[History</a> at Gettysburg](<a href=“http://www.gettysburg.edu/academics/history/courses/]History”>http://www.gettysburg.edu/academics/history/courses/)
[Linguistics</a> and Cognitive Science at Pomona](<a href=“http://catalog.pomona.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=7&poid=622]Linguistics”>Program: Linguistics and Cognitive Science Courses - Pomona College - Acalog ACMS™)
[Math</a> at Williams](<a href=“Williams College”>Williams College)
[Music</a> at Lawrence](<a href=“http://www.lawrence.edu/conservatory/degrees_information/course_descriptions]Music”>http://www.lawrence.edu/conservatory/degrees_information/course_descriptions)
[Philosophy</a> at Reed](<a href=“http://academic.reed.edu/philosophy/courses/index.html]Philosophy”>Courses - Philosophy Department - Reed College)
[Physics</a> at Carleton](<a href=“https://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/Curriculum/courses/]Physics”>https://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/Curriculum/courses/)
[Psychology</a> at Clark](<a href=“Program: Psychology Major - Clark University - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Psychology Major - Clark University - Acalog ACMS™)
[Religion</a> at Haverford](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/catalog/humanities/religion.php#Courses]Religion”>http://www.haverford.edu/catalog/humanities/religion.php#Courses)</p>
<p>How should an undecided (for major) student choose if s/he is not admitted to a LAC that is strong in all of his/her possible majors?</p>
<p>Re: [Economics</a> at Claremont McKenna College](<a href=“Program: Courses in Economics - Claremont McKenna College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Courses in Economics - Claremont McKenna College - Acalog ACMS™)</p>
<p>Interesting that it is considered a strong department when its economics major and courses are not particularly mathematically intensive the way PhD programs tend to prefer, although it does appear to offer a lot of courses (but some of them would be considered business or finance courses at schools with such departments – perhaps that may have to do with it apparently being a decent place for finance job recruiting).</p>
<p>It’s important to be careful with course offerings. Although the list of all courses offered in the major is expansive, there needs to be someone in the department who is capable, and willing, to teach a course for it to be offered. For example, in my time at UCLA, no philosophy of biology courses were offered. And, although a second course in logic and metalogic were offered annually, modal logic was only offered once in my time there, and was the first time it was offered in at least 5 years, even though UCLA has a logician among it’s philosophical faculty (he’s also in the math department and mostly sticks to set theory i think;) philosophy of psychology was taught once in my time there, but that was the first time the course was offered in over twenty years; and at my community college, only as the head of the department was getting ready to retire, did they finally start teaching symbolic logic again, after a 15-20 year gap. He didn’t allow it to be taught even though it’s standard at basically any university with a respectable philosophical curriculum. (The former head of the department didn’t believe in it, or analytic philosophy, even though that’s the dominant subject matter in nearly all philosophical departments in most research universities in the English speaking world.)</p>
<p>So again, although available courses are a guide, often checking the actual available courses for the past few years will give you a significantly more clear picture of the courses the department is likely to offer.</p>
<p>Sometimes, a course may be regularly offered, but only once every two years, so a student may have only one or two chances to take it during four years at the school. That may not be optimal if the student wants to do a semester off (study abroad, co-op job, etc.).</p>
<p>^ This, and some of the other issues raised here, can apply to LACs and universities alike.
If students at LACs in particular were suffering from a shortage of available courses, then I would not expect LACs to perform as well as they do in 4 year graduation rates. I would not expect them to be well prepared to perform as well as they do in PhD completions. </p>
<p>No school, big or small, can be equally strong in all departments or courses within departments. Of course, a large university does have the advantage that if a course or professor is unavailable, there is a greater likelihood that a similar course or another good professor will be. </p>
<p>On the Kiplinger lists of “best value” colleges, 2 of 100 public research universities (most of which are mid- to large-sized) have 4-year graduation rates of 85% or more. 18 private LACs do. A variety of factors may be influencing these rates … but LAC students don’t appear to have particular difficulty with graduating on time.</p>
<p>According to John J. Siegfried and Wendy A. Stock (in The Undergraduate Origins of PhD Economists, 2006) the top 5 institution size normalized American sources of eventual economics Ph.D.s, for the period 1997-2003, were all LACs. 7 of the top 10 program-size normalized American sources of eventual Economics Ph.D.s, for the period 1997-2003, were LACs. Swarthmore is #1 on the first list and #2 on the second. The following links show Swarthmore’s course offerings in economics and their requirements/recommendations for mathematics preparation.
[Swarthmore</a> College :: Economics :: Courses](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/academics/economics/courses.xml]Swarthmore”>Courses :: Economics :: Swarthmore College)
[Swarthmore</a> College :: Economics :: Academic Program](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/academics/economics/academic-program.xml]Swarthmore”>Academic Program :: Economics :: Swarthmore College)</p>
<p>Grinnell is another LAC that ranks high on the Siegfried & Stock lists.
[Economics</a> Curriculum - Economics | Grinnell College](<a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/economics/aboutmajor/economicscurriculum]Economics”>http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/economics/aboutmajor/economicscurriculum)
[Major</a> description and requirements - Economics | Grinnell College](<a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/economics/aboutmajor/majorrequirements]Major”>http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/economics/aboutmajor/majorrequirements)</p>
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<p>It is not about 4-year graduation rates – presumably any reasonable department can offer the core required courses for the major to all students. However, there may not be as much selection of in-major electives. If the in-major elective you really want to take is a once-every-two-years course that is offered when you want to study abroad or at the same time slot as another once-every-two-years course you want or need to take, you might miss out on the chance to take it.</p>
<p>^^I think anyone who has spent an entire afternoon channel surfing 300 cable stations knows that sometimes too many choices can operate as a kind of tyranny.This can be especially dangerous in a large university where the academic advising may not be very good.One of the things I admire about small colleges is how their departments depend on each other to provide breadth and coherence.Thus, if you don’t see what you want in Chemistry, you might find in Molecular Biology, or vice versa.Same thing in Math and comp sci, or math and economics. Or, History and Poli Sci. The synergy between disciplines is what makes small colleges so special.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say a shortage of courses were available for undergraduates. I said there was a shortage of total offered courses in the catalog that were offered to undergraduates. Expanding on my expamples:</p>
<p>At UCLA, classes on the Philosophy of Language are taught every single year, without exception. It’s UCLA’s strongest field, and one where the current (Tyler Burge, David Kaplan, etc.) and former (Keith Donellan, Kitt Fine, etc.) faculty have arguably had the most influence. These classes range anywhere from 127A (On various works of Frege’s if taught by Kaplan) 127B ( Mostly on Russell’s On Denoting if taught by Kaplan) and 127C (on Kripke’s Naming and Necessity if taught by Kaplan, Almog, or both.) 127A, when taught by Tony Martin, which I took, was on Vagueness/The Sorites Paradox, which is a very difficult subject currently, and historically, in philosophy. A class was taught on Wittgenstein’s Philosophical Investigations in my time there (although it was my understanding that only one professor knows the subject well enough to teach it.) And even classes which aren’t explicitly philosophy of language (e.g. Burge’s philosophy of mind) have their basis in the philosophy of language pioneered by Kripke, Putnam, Donellan, and others.</p>
<p>Other classes taught annually, or biennially, included classes on Kant’s ethics, Kant’s metaphysics/epistemolgy, Descartes, Burge’s philosophy of mind, Burge’s philosophy of psychology, and so on. </p>
<p>In general, there are plenty of courses available to undergraduates (except for those few years UCLA accidentally overenrolled.) But as i argued earlier, they may not be the courses that undergraduates desire. An undergraduate might very much prefer classes in the philosophy of law as opposed to philosophy of language, although in my time at UCLA, only one of the former classes was offered and i believe it was a graduate seminar. This is the case even though we have a professor on our faculty who has a JD and is also faculty within our law school. In my time at UCLA, there weren’t even any classes on John Rawls or A Theory of Justice. This should be surprising since there are at least three Rawlsians on UCLA’s faculty, including one who did her dissertation under him (Barbara Herman.) Any of them could do it under the political philosophy class, and without a doubt, when you’re doing contemporary political philosophy, you talk about Rawls. But still, no Rawls classes, at least in my time there. Why’s that the case? Well i can’t be exactly sure, but in conversation’s i’ve had with Burge, he noted that there are other subjects he’d love to teach, but he fills in certain gaps the other faculty can’t. (I assume the same happens with these other classes. Professors are too busy teaching introductory ethics to teach the seminar they’d like on the pre-Socratics.)</p>
<p>So again, although courses may be offerable to undergraduates in the broad catalog for the department, there needs to be faculty capable, and willing, to teach a course for a course to be offered.</p>