Top Research U's 2008 NSF Ranking

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<p>I agree the “all campuses” thing is confusing. I also agree that if you combine the entire UC system, it blows any other public university system out of the water. On the other hand, if you attend any UC campus, what goes on on any other UC campus doesn’t really affect you very much. </p>

<p>And the “all campuses” designation is also extremely misleading with respect to, for example, the University of Michigan, which has one dominant campus (Ann Arbor) where probably 95%+ of the University’s research expenditures occur, and two tiny satellite campuses (Flint and Dearborn) which house small undergrad-oriented non-research institutions representing (combined) something like 4% of the University’s total budget. I agree it would be better if we did a campus-to-campus comparison… If we did, the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor would still be easily within the top 5.</p>

<p>"From that point downward, there are lots of LACs in the $1 million to $2.5 million range. All these figures obviously pale in comparison to the $800 million to $1 billion+ range of the big research powerhouses. The LACs would say that’s fine as they define their primary mission as undergrad education, not research. But it is helpful to put the scale of the research effort into some perspective. Next time you hear LACs boasting about their “research opportunities,” keep in mind that the research being done is likely to be small-scale and in some cases at the margins of the discipline. Not that you can’t learn there, but in general you’re less likely to encounter the truly cutting-edge research in your chosen field. "</p>

<p>And you seem to not understand the difference between an undergraduate and graduate education.</p>

<p>HMC and Pomona (and others) are undergrad only. Please, tell me how much Berkeley undergrad spends on their research…? (not to mention that HMC has only 720 students)</p>

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<p>LOL. OK, bring on the ad hominem attacks. </p>

<p>Look, I’ve been both an undergrad and a grad student. I’ve taught both undergrads and grad students. My own daughter will be an undergrad beginning next year, and her college search is focused exclusively on LACs—with my blessing, though I think in some ways she doesn’t fully appreciate what she’ll be missing by not being at a major research university. But there are compensating benefits in the small, comforting, nurturing womb of a good LAC, and perhaps she’s right that it’s the best undergrad environment for her. It wouldn’t be for some students, but it’s a valid educational model. I have no problem with that. But to suggest I do “not understand the difference between an undergraduate and graduate education” is simply preposterous, and downright risible.</p>

<p>This thread is about research. My only point is that the research effort at LACs pales in comparison to that at major research universities. That much I think is incontrovertible. Not so say there is no research at LACs, but what goes on will tend to be small-scale, often small-bore, and usually at the margins of the discipline—not the kind of research that is likely to produce major advances in human knowledge. And that’s fine; not every person or institution needs to produce major advances in human knowledge. LACs are particularly well suited to producing well-rounded generalists, some of whom will specialize later—and some of whom, usually with the benefit of specialization and in-depth training at the graduate level at a major research university, will go on to produce major advances in human knowledge. But LACs are simply not research powerhouses, and anyone who thinks they are is either badly misinformed, or delusional.</p>

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<p>Well, “rocket,” you do the math. First, though, I think your question betrays a basic misunderstanding about how research universities work. There is no “Berkeley undergrad” as opposed to “Berkeley grad” or whatever it is you imagine stands in opposition to “Berkeley undergrad.” The physics faculty is the physics faculty, undergrad and grad; the chemistry faculty is the chemistry faculty, and so on and so forth. </p>

<p>But do the numbers. I’m less familiar with Berkeley than with my own undergrad alma mater, Michigan, where total research expenditures in the survey barrons cites are listed at $800 million/year (though the University’s own figures say they now exceed $1 billion). Divided by 26,000 undergrads, $800 million comes out to a cool $30K+ in research expenditures per undergrad. Pomona shows research expenditures of $3.1 million; over a student base of 1,532, that comes out to about $2,000 per undergrad, putting Michigan’s research expenditures per undergrad more than an order of magnitude higher than Pomona’s. Now granted, Michigan also has some grad students figured into the mix, but even so, given the scale and scope of research they’re able to do with that money, not to mention its cutting-edge quality, it seems to me there are going to be far superior opportunities for the talented and self-motivated student at Michigan to leap into the fray and get the kind of hands-on experience with state-of-the-art research that the Pomona student is going to get only in grad school.</p>

<p>LACs have many virtues. Cutting-edge research is not one of them.</p>

<p>yes, but, on the most simplistic, basic math level, shouldn’t the research u numbers include total grad AND undergrad enrollment?</p>

<p>I prefer to use the “official” NSF data because there are some standards of reporting. I understand througth the grapevine that UM was so motivated to pass Wisconsin in the research spending competition that they are now counting the time UM football coaches spend breaking down film on their next opponent as “research”. ;-)</p>

<p>^^^Oh? So I take it that Michigan has indeed passed up Wisky in research dollars? It was inevitable anyway. The numbers will continue to grow with the acquisition and implementation of the new NCRC.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.umresearchgrowth.org/[/url]”>www.umresearchgrowth.org/</a></p>

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<p>Fair enough.</p>

<p>University of Michigan FY 2008 S&E research expenditures: $809,876,000
Total enrollment (undergrad + grad): 41,028
Research expenditures per student: $19,740</p>

<p>Pomona FY 2008 S&E research expenditures: $3,108,000
Total enrollment (undergrad only): 1,532
Research expenditures per student: $2,029</p>

<p>Still roughly an order of magnitude difference. Not that it matters. The Pomona faculty and administration would never claim they can compete with a school like Michigan in research, any more than they can compete with Michigan in football. That’s not their thing. What they do, they do exceedingly well. But they’re not a research powerhouse. And they don’t need to be.</p>

<p>Why is Florida ranked behined Berkeley and Pitt?</p>

<p>17 *<strong><em>U. Pittsburgh all campuses 559 596
18 *</em></strong>U. CA, Berkeley 552 592
19 ***************************<strong><em>U. FL 593 584
20 *</em></strong>TX A&M U. 544 582</p>

<p>I don’t know that yet. UW does not post numbers before the NSF reports are released. I just noted in the 2009 UM report that they had reclassified some work done in their fee practices by UM doctors as “research spending” so I knew they were beating the bushes to get their number up. Not that there is anything wrong with being creative–such as not separating out the other campus numbers (not huge but this competition is THAT close and they have the numbers in their own internal documents). I think due in part to the Michigan economy the Federal stimulus research funds have been very generously directed to UM. If UM wants to win for one year that badly we’ll let them, graciously.</p>

<p>"Cebulski noted that the FY 2009 numbers include an accounting change that adds $44.2 million to the U-M research-spending total. For the first time, research funds from a U-M physician’s group called the University of Michigan Faculty Group Practice were included in the annual total.</p>

<p>FY 2008 research-expenditure numbers were revised to include $53 million from Faculty Group Practice funds as well. The revised research-spending total for FY 2008 is $929 million."</p>

<p>^^Like Wisconsin doesn’t do the same thing?</p>

<p>No, they don’t. They are like Caesar’s wife. And nowhere as bent on self-promotion as UM. And I respect UM for their unrivaled ability to sell the UM Leaders and the Best thing. Even when it’s not so true.</p>

<p>"I understand througth the grapevine that UM was so motivated to pass Wisconsin in the research spending competition that they are now counting the time UM football coaches spend breaking down film on their next opponent as “research”. "</p>

<p>“I think due in part to the Michigan economy the Federal stimulus research funds have been very generously directed to UM. If UM wants to win for one year that badly we’ll let them, graciously.”</p>

<p>“And I respect UM for their unrivaled ability to sell the UM Leaders and the Best thing. Even when it’s not so true.”</p>

<p>Funny, you don’t sound at all like a gracious loser to me. :-)</p>

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1 *<strong><em>UCSF/Berkeley 1,395 1,477
2 *</em></strong>U. WI Madison 841 882
3 *<strong><em>U. MI all campuses 809 876
4 *</em></strong>U. CA, Los Angeles 823 871
5 *<strong><em>U. CA, San Diego 799 842
6 *</em></strong>Johns Hopkins U., The 776 836
7 *<strong><em>Duke U. 782 767
8 *</em></strong>U. WA 757 765
9 *<strong><em>U. PA 648 708
10 *</em></strong>OH State U. all campuses 720 703
11 *<strong><em>PA State U. all campuses 652 701
12 *</em></strong>Stanford U. 688 688
13 *<strong><em>U. MN all campuses 624 683
14 *</em></strong>MA Institute of Technology 614 660
15 *<strong><em>Cornell U. all campuses 642 654
16 *</em></strong>U. CA, Davis 601 643
17 *<strong><em>U. Pittsburgh all campuses 559 596
18 *</em></strong>U. FL 593 584
19 ****TX A&M U. 544 582</p>

<p>corrected + sleight of hand. ;)</p>

<p>I’m so looking forward to 11/14/09 and not because it’s the day we fly back to Seattle from Kona. Too bad I’ll be over the Pacific during the game. Maybe they’ll have Wi-Fi on the flight.
Nice work UCB. UCSF is just a grant generating machine.</p>

<p>Nice try UCBChemEGrad…I don’t care if UCSF is Berkeley’s “de facto” med school (and nor does NSF apparently) because in reality it is its own entity. Does Berkeley really have to be #1 at everything?</p>

<p>****U. MI all campuses 809 876</p>

<p>Michigan only has three campuses, Ann Arbor and one each in Dearborn and Flint. The latter two hardly conduct any research at all. The University of Wisconsin system on the other hand has 26 campuses.</p>

<p>UCBChemEGrad’s list makes some good sense. On the OP’s list, MIT and UC Berkeley (also UCSF in a different way) are different from all other schools. And Johns Hopkins was greatly inflated with the APL budget.</p>

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At least the APL is a division of Hopkins and has formal academic ties with the university. No such connection between Berkeley and UCSF exists.</p>

<p>I’m pleased to see that Rockefeller U did well as usual, performing roughly on par with UCSF when size is accounted for.</p>

<p>^^ I think UCBChemEGrad’s combining of UC Berkeley with UCSF was made in jest to highlight the fact that Berkeley’s federal funding does not include money for medical school and hospitals.</p>

<p>And adding APL budget to Johns Hopkins is no more valid than adding LBL budget to UCB, JPL budget to Caltech, BNL to SUNY Stony Brook, or SLAC to Stanford.</p>

<p>JHU cannot legally report APL as a “separate entity” as it is bound by it’s tax exempt status to report APL as a division of the university. It’s NSF’s decision to add JHU APL into the university’s total… not JHU…</p>

<h2>Johns Hopkins owns The Applied Physics Lab. JHU actually owns the 600 acre campus, equipment, facilities, engineers, scientists, and researchers.</h2>

<p>NASA owns JPL (it’s merely contracted out to Caltech to manage the operation for NASA)
US Department of Energy (DOE) owns SLAC (managed/operated by Stanford* for* DOE)
DOE also owns LBL and LNBL (managed/operated by Berkeley* for DOE)
DOE owns Fermilab and Argonne lab (managed/operated by UChicago
for* DOE)</p>

<p>It would be AGAINST THE LAW to report a NATIONAL LABORATORY (JPL, SLAC, Argonne, LBNL, LBL, Fermilab) if you are an institution with tax exempt status. Since you don’t own it, you can’t report it.</p>

<p>Srry Berkeley fans :D</p>