OP: If you are willing, in addition to Harvard, to apply as a transfer to schools not named Harvard, I need your help.
Please list the names of the specific courses at Harvard & at MIT that interest you.
P.S. OP: If I may, I would like to ask you a serious question.
Do you understand the purpose of education ?
In other words, do you know what education is all about ?
I am not trying to be impolite; I am trying to help you–as I see you stumbling through this thread.
@Publisher Thanks for your willingness to provide constructive advice. Like I said, Harvard is by far the the top choice, but any programs that integrates liberal arts with STEM is preferable. Schools like MIT and CalTech are unparalleled when it comes to course offerings, but the exclusive focus on engineering and science is too much for my liking. Harvard, at least from my point of view, checks all the boxes with it’s curriculum and ability to cross-register with MIT for higher level classes. I can get a partial MIT education without having to actually fulfill all the science core, while being within Harvard’s academically diverse community.
I’ve looked into Brown, but there are two main reasons why I’m also shying away from it, and you mentioned one of them. The math departments are very strong, but like you mentioned finance isn’t all that popular. I have friends at Brown who are going the traditional finance route and they’ve expressed some concerns with regard to the OCR and overall finance culture. I don’t know what it’s like for quant finance, but I would imagine it has even less presence than traditional finance. The other reason is the social aspect. In terms of vibe (for lack of a better term), I would say Brown and Yale are very similar. If I’m not comfortable with Yale, I think Brown would be even worse. I know I can’t have it all, but Harvard does seem like a perfect match. Although, I am very open to suggestions.
As to my course of interest, I don’t know each specific classes name, but to give you a more general sense, I am very interested in Harvard quantitive finance track within the statistics concentration. They are a few classes which focus on the applications of mathematical concepts in finance. For MIT, again, I don’t remember the specific course of the top of my head, but if I remember correctly they where listed as part of the Course 15-2 (Business Analytics) and some where the more mathematically intense classes within 15-3 (Finance).
I noticed you mentioned the need to pursue an advanced degree in order to enter quantitive roles, so I though I would quickly address that as well. I am well aware of this, and I’ve already started to look into it. While I know MIT might offer some of the best programs, I have been getting very interested in Oxford University’s Master in Mathematical and Computational Finance. I have a family friend who did a masters at Oxford, and they’ve always talked about how amazing it was to experience Oxford as a student. The program offers the exact course selection I’m looking for, and would fulfill my desire to go abroad for some portion of my education. Of course, I may be limiting myself for stateside employment, so if that is a large concern, I am completely content with doing a masters in the US.
I understand that socially Yale & Brown are similiar and that if a student is uncomfortable at one, then that student most likely would be uncomfortable at both.
I think that your reasons for applying to Harvard as a transfer are substantial. As getting accepted is not a given, alternatives should be examined.
Your reasons for not applying directly to MIT or to CalTech are understood, but you have another year at Yale to explore liberal arts & humanities courses–if I understand your situation correctly.
I will PM you with some of my thoughts which may help you to craft your transfer application essays in a persuasive fashion. (Just suggestions as I have no inside knowledge.)
Over the past ten years I’ve been on CC, I’ve only known of one person who was rejected from Harvard, who subsequently reapplied and was admitted: @Hanna. So, you might want to DM her for her advice.
@gibby: See OP’s post #13 above regarding OP’s awareness about Hanna’s transfer from Bryn Mawr To Harvard.
OP: Since you have expressed an interest in a masters degree encompassing “computational finance”, I encourage you–once again–to examine Carnegie Mellon’s (CMU) offerings in this area. I think that you will discover that CMU has been a pioneer in this area & continues to be a leader today.
@gibby Thanks for the heads up. I took a look at her post history, and it seems like she got in over two decades ago. Obviously, she must have some excellent advice, but a lot has changed since that time. Considering CC is a subset of all applicants, is it possible that others have reapplied and gotten in?
@Publisher I took a look at CMU and it look great. Like I mentioned, I’m really interested in Oxford’s program because it has the added benefit of allowing me to go abroad. But, this is all at least 2 years out, so I’m not 100% on anything.
@transferthrow555: You should still reach out to @Hanna, as I believe she’s also an alumni interviewer and understands what the Admissions Office is looking for in a transfer applicant.
OP: Hopefully you have time to examine the course offerings of two certificate programs which may appeal to you. The students in these two programs will be equal to any Ivy League students as both certificate programs are limited to the best students at these schools.
The schools are Northwestern University–all students are easily Ivy League quality in terms of stats & accomplishments–and the University of Virginia McIntire School of Commerce (quantitative finance). My link doesn’t seem to work, but I am barely literate with computers. https://www.commerce.virginia.edu/undergrad/quantitativefinance
NU limits the certificate program to 50 students while Virginia limits its certificate program to 20 to 30 students. (Financial Economics Certificate & Mangerial Analytics Certificate = both taught by Kellogg faculty.)
(other certificate= managerial-economics-certificate)
For Northwestern University search for “Northwestern University Kellogg certificate programs for undergraduates”. There are two programs. Students must apply & be accepted. Courses involving derivatives, mathematical modeling, design of predictive algorithms should be very attractive to any & all hedge funds.
Northwestern University also offers MMSS (mathematical methods for social sciences).
https://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/courses
All of these Northwestern University certificate programs are selective & designed for “super-brainiacs”.
Northwestern University & the University of Virginia are the best programs that I know of outside of MIT & CMU.
This works:
https://www.commerce.virginia.edu/undergrad/quantitative-finance
14 courses including:
MATH 4110 Introduction To Stochastic Processes
STAT 5120 Applied Linear Modeling
COMM 4780 Quantitative Finance Seminar (designed to fit student’s skills & needs/wants)
P.S. In the Northwestern University Kellogg certificate program, the Topics course can & does change. On the website shared above, the Topics course is Derivatives II.
OP - This is the crux of your original question: “I know Harvard transfers admissions is mostly reserved for CC applicants or veterans, so I’m well aware of the difficulty. I know I’m mostly likely to be rejected, but I would regret not at least trying.”
You already know the odds for transferring are extremely low. Of course they aren’t 0% so give it a go.
IMO, the bigger question is would you be happy staying and graduating from a Yale if your transfer application is rejected or are you unhappy enough to apply to transfer for more broadly? That’s something you should really think about since the odds of transferring to Harvard are so low.
What I also think many posters are trying to point out to you, is that there seems to be a disconnect between how you are describing your long term goals and what is lacking from Yale, to the academic fit/benefits at Harvard. IMO, if you present yourself in your transfer application like you have here, I think it’s going to be an easy decision for Harvard to reject your application so you may want to give that more thought.
I’m assuming you’ve already looked into this, but have you really studied the 4 year plan of study at Harvard for your intended major? Generally speaking at most schools, the liberal arts courses are taken first and second year, and then upper level is when you are really digging into the crux of the major. There may be less LA than you expect.
Good luck to you and I hope you circle back and let us know how you made out.
The Northwestern University MMSS program has individualzed career counseling, lots of internships, lots of research opportunities with Kellogg professors & has Hedge Fund placements.
https://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/courses/2018-2019/course-descriptions/
https://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/employment-placements.html
Here’s what I don’t understand. If the OP is going to get his graduate degree in financial engineering after his undergraduate education, why does he care so much about the differences in undergraduate programs? He can put together a program at most top colleges that meet his objective, even if the college doesn’t offer a dedicated program in Operations Research or Financial Engineering, because math, and in some cases CS, are the keys. All major Wall Street firms know that it’s much easier to teach a new hire about finance than about math or CS (by CS they don’t mean programming).
Maybe OP plans to work before entering a graduate program ?
My goal was to get OP to list specific courses that he desires but are not offered at Yale. That is why I ask OP to examine CMU, Northwestern, & Virginia offerings = to inform him of relevant courses which may or may not be available at Yale.
OP had an internship with a hedge fund & was told that Harvard & MIT students were much better prepared for the industry than Yale students. Some schools are just more geared toward hedge fund applied quant math than others. Not sure if still accurate, but at one time the Illinois Institute of Technology was a leader in quantitative finance & financial engineering.
CMU, NYU has two programs–one at Poly, Columbia has two graduate programs, Princeton, Cornell, UCLA, MIT, DePaul, Penn-Wharton, Georgia Tech, Texas at Austin, Michigan, Purdue, ASU, Ohio State, Indiana, Stevens Institute, UCal-Berkeley, and I noted Northwestern & Virginia undergrad offerings above. University of Chicago math will get one hedge fund offers as well.
OP is a freshman & his hedge fund internship mentor made a strong impression upon him.
OP realizes the prestige value of Yale for IB, PE, & hedge fund recruiting / placement, but wants courses not offered by Yale–but does not want to step down from Yale level prestige. Makes sense to me. But heavy quant/math work is more than prestige if OP wants to develop predictive algorithms type work = my understanding / my best guess.
OP is a freshman. It’s okay to want something different. We all discover our true callings & interests in life & work at different times. So OP’s inquisitiveness & exploration seems fine, in my view.
P.S. Imagine if you were told by an influential mentor that the best for your desired career come from Harvard & MIT and one transfer to Harvard could give you access to both.
^I made the point previously that some Harvard students were better prepared than Yale students because they were better prepared before they were enrolled at Harvard. BTW, quant funds like Jane Street, Two Sigma, DE Shaw, etc. hire very few undergrads, even Harvard undergrads, and they tend to be former IMO, or Putnam, or some other major competition winners. The math that are required are well known: probabilities, stochastic processes, optimizations, etc. The problem solving skills, as demonstrated in interviews and on their proprietary tests, are what make the difference for a successful candidate.
OP has interned at a hedge fund. His mentor made a strong impression upon him. I know several undergrads who were hired by hedge funds as fulltime employees right out of undergraduate school including family members. (UChicago & Northwestern.)
^It depends on the type of hedge funds and the roles they’d fill. For the roles OP desires, the top quant funds hire few, if any, undergrads, for those roles.
@momofsenior1 I get where you are coming from. I am definitely unhappy at Yale, and I feel as though I am not receiving the education to meet my desired goals, but I am unsure whether I would be okay remaining there if I am rejected as a transfer. Considering I am only a freshman, I thought I would give my sophomore year a fair shake and see how it goes. I am still going to apply to Harvard for sure, but whether I apply more broadly is dependent on how the year goes.
You also mentioned that there is a disconnect in how I am describing my goals with the education I seek. How so? The basic gist of it is that I want to enter the quant industry, but Yale has been historically poor at placing into it and lacks the general curriculum that specializes in topics within mathematical finance. At Harvard, I can receive the education I want, both through their course and cross registration with MIT. You also mentioned the 4 year course of study with most LA aspects being in the first two, and you are absolutely correct. But something you forgot to account for is the impact of LA on all 4 years, outside of the classroom. Having a focus on all disciplines allows for a breadth and diversity of knowledge within the student body that permeates every aspect of your education. I’ve felt it at Yale, and Harvard is very similar. I’ve noticed that a lot of my learning is done outside of class through discussion. It sounds very cheesy, but these discussions are dependent on the environment that the school harbors. I find it hard to believe the STEM influence of MIT would allow for the same diversity of through present at Harvard. I am very interested in quant finance, but it isn’t the only thing I would like to learn. Even though I may not taking any LA class in the last two years at Harvard, the effects of LA would be felt nonetheless.
@1NJParent I also agree that a dedicated OR/ FE program isn’t a prerequisite for a job in quant finance, but Yale also has a mediocre CS (when compared to Harvard or other T10) program. I’ve had friends take many intro classes in CS, and the general consensus is that CS50 was the best class. CS50 is a series of online lectures pre-recorded at Harvard (for Harvard students). That should really put Yale CS into perspective. By no means is it bad, but it definitely isn’t at Harvard’s level, or MIT at that. I’ve heard that upper level classes are very theory based, and unlike Harvard, there are no classes that explore CS practical application in finance. The topic may be touched upon, but the class isn’t dedicated to it.
To say that Harvard students are generally more prepared before enrollment is also a bit of a generalization. I have many friends at Harvard who where CS/ Math spike applicants, and they where rejected at Yale. On average, Harvard may have more STEM oriented people based on self-selection, but to say that Yale STEM students are less prepared is not entirely accurate. I’ll take my friends as an example; Are the ones that got rejected from Yale, but got into Harvard any less prepared than a student who got into Yale, but rejected from Harvard? Every year, college admissions is becoming more of a toss-up, so no-one students it better than the other, because on any given year, they may have been accepted to Harvard.
Something else you mentioned is that a lot of top quant shops want masters/ PhDs in something quantitive. You are correct on this, but I agree with @Publisher. Not everyone has those degrees, and for the people that come straight from undergrad, not all of them are IMO or Putnam winners. The hedge fund I interned at wasn’t Citadel or Two Sigma, but it wasn’t small either (10+ billion AUM). Many quants had higher level degrees, but a large portion of them also came from undergrad, and from those, many were MIT and Harvard alums. None of them won IMO or Putnam. The HF manager I know was very direct that MIT and Harvard are over-represented in the field. Those two schools aren’t necessary to succeed, but the benefits of having that established and expansive alumni network are very substantial. For the most part, Yale grads are nowhere to be found in the industry.
@Publisher I took a look at your suggestions, and from those, I think Northwestern looks great. I got into NU last year, but the Yale name was too much to say no to at the time. I am hesitant with CMU, because I visited the campus a few years ago, and I really did not like the “vibe”, the location, and overall, the school. The visit was enough to convince me to not even apply. It may be great for what I want, but with what I experienced, I don’t know if it would be worth it to leave Yale. UVA is also great, but at much as I hate to say it, I don’t know how I feel leaving Yale and it’s prestige to go to UVA. For one, I know my parents would be furious! Overall, Northwestern seems like a great alternative to Harvard. The only thing that concerns me is the location. If possible, I would like to work east coast based jobs, and I’ve heard that Northwestern places mostly into Chicago funds. Other than Citadel main offices in Chicago, aren’t most quant funds in NYC/ CT?
OP, a few points:
Yale does hand out likely letters to attract some STEM students, but Harvard specifically recruit, and is one of the desired destinations for IMO medalists, etc. As a result, Harvard has many more such students than Yale.
Taking courses at MIT for a Harvard student isn’t as straightforward as you probably imagined. For what you want to accomplish, you’ll probably have a full course load. MIT courses aren’t synchronized with the Harvard schedule.
I’m not sure about Yale’s CS program, but I can’t imagine it doesn’t have something similar to Harvard’s CS50. It’s such a basic course. The CS courses that really matter for you are AI courses (specifically machine learning courses), not some application of CS in finance course because that would be too superficial (lacking depth).
Having more alums at quant funds will get you an interview. But that’s about it. These aren’t IB jobs. You need to demonstrate much higher level of quantitative problem solving skills to get to the next step.
@1NJParent I think you misunderstood the point about CS50 at Yale. Too clarify, CS50 at Yale is literally a set of pre-recorded Harvard lessons from their CS50. Yale is using a Harvard class for an intro course. I mention this to highlight Yale’s strength in CS. It is to the point where they feel the need to utilize Harvard course lectures. This is perpetuated to the higher level classes where the quality isn’t to the level of Harvard’s. Another thing for cross-registration, is that I would automatically be cross-registered due to ROTC at MIT. Since ROTC is on MIT’s campus, I am already cross-registed so that could ease up that process.
As for the alumni network point, you are correct in saying quant requires a demonstration of technical skills unlike IB. But the utter lack of Yallies in the field is a detriment. Whether that stems from Yale’s lack of strength in STEM or from self-selection is besides the point. Having little to no alums in an industry is definitely a negative compared to Harvard.