Transfer Student from a State School looking for a new home. Chance me/match me

Demographics

  • I’m a first-gen college student, as well as a first-gen immigrant white male.
  • US Citizen
  • State: Utah
  • College: Public, T100, currently a 2nd year

Intended Major(s)

  • Economics

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 3.92
  • Weighted HS GPA (incl. weighting system): 4.5
  • College GPA (for transfers): 4.0
  • Class Rank: N/A
  • ACT/SAT Scores: 34

Coursework

  • Done with all my basic major reqs, including intro micro/macro as well as intermediate micro/macro. Did a class on money and banking, international economics, history of economics, as well as Chinese economics. Completed most of my geneds and math up to differential equations.

Awards

  • FBLA Nationals Top 5 Finishes
  • Currently a semi-finalist for a very competitive national scholarship

Extracurriculars

  • Congressional Intern
  • Campaign Manager for a Successful State Democratic Senate Campaign
  • Honors College First-Year Instructor
  • Model UN Officer for a competitive team
  • Student Government Representative of my college
  • Honors College Student Leadership
  • Volunteer with my local church

Essays/LORs/Other

  • I’m going to base my essays on my experience working across party lines to deliver public service to America. Going to link it to my first-gen experience with a strong focus on my identity as a fairly uncommon ethnicity/religion. My guess is that they’re going to be pretty strong as I will get lots of feedback on them.
  • Overall grade: 9/10

Cost Constraints / Budget

  • Will need substantial need-based aid to attend, public out-of-state schools are not an option

Schools

  • UChicago (TED)
  • Vanderbilt
  • Georgetown
  • Dartmouth
  • Columbia
  • Looking for more suggestions in the replies

These analyses may offer you perspective on some of the nation’s stronger economics programs:

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.uslacecon.html

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.usecondept.html

To enhance your potential options, you may want to consider liberal arts colleges with excellent economics departments and well-funded financial aid programs, such as Hamilton and Colby.

From your current choices, Vanderbilt may offer you the likeliest prospect for admission.

Based on your indicated interests, you could benefit from looking into colleges with an available program in public policy. This interdisciplinary course of study relies on the fields of economics, political science and philosophy for its foundation, and emphasizes practical approaches to seemingly complex issues.

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What is your goal? Clearly you are trying to amp up the name brand thing, but from your list I really can’t guess what your overall goal is- which is relevant to where else you might apply.

Have you taken a look at the graduation requirements for UChicago and Columbia? Can you meet them and still graduate in a total of 4 years? Are you happy to take all of the required core classes?

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Are you unhappy where you are or are you just trying to go for more prestige? If you are unhappy and definitely want to transfer you need to add schools that are easier to get into. With your current list you could possibly not get in anywhere. If that happens and you are back at your current school next year will you be ok with the outcome?

Also you say you have finished your gen eds. You should realize that not every school has the same gen eds and all your courses may not transfer. A friend of my sons transferred from between two peer schools, not even moving up in prestige, and kept the same major and he will have to go an extra year.

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You will have to write an essay covering why you want to transfer, and generally that should discuss academic reasons for transfer. What are those reasons?

I agree with the above that you must add some less selective schools if you are certain you want to transfer. I encourage you to consider LACs too.

I don’t see much commonality in the schools on your list besides prestige. What attributes are you looking for in a school? Geographic limitations?

I also agree with the comment above about core requirements. Look very carefully at Columbia’s and Chicago’s especially, as those heavy core curricula can easily require summer school or an extra semester or two for transfers.

How much fin aid do you need? Are your parents taking out loans to fund your education? I might drop Georgetown because their FA for transfers is often not great, and they use parent plus loans to meet full need, which is ridiculous.

ETA: did you apply to any of these schools out of HS? Where else were you accepted after HS?

This.

For transfer purposes, you are completing year two of college. Your strong high school record probably won’t matter.

Did you apply to any of these schools as a high school senior?

You say you need significant financial aid…but are you actually eligible to receive need based aid?

Thanks for the reply!

I wasn’t clear enough in my post but my overall goal is to pursue public interest, most likely through law-school after graduation. My current school places a large emphasis on its business school with very little funding for social sciences and essentially no opportunities for my program.

I’m not particularly “unhappy” with my current school, apart from the frustration with the administration as well as the curriculum. I want to pursue more of a liberal-arts education that would allow me to broaden my horizons without impeding my academic progress.

Thanks for the insightful reply!

To start off, my academic goals for transferring include my current universities’ heavy focus on a “structured” education without much room to pursue a liberal arts education that I know I would enjoy more. In addition, our job placement rates for our economics program are not great, and it essentially locks me into law-school post-grad since I would want to receive higher compensation. Furthermore, my university does not provide substantial funds to my social sciences college and in turn, we do not have a very large array of opportunities that are supported (think no connections when it comes to more competitive federal govt internships).

The commonality in the schools listed is that they have well-funded economics programs and much better job placement in the field. I would be allowed to pursue my undergrad without being locked into pursuing law school immediately post my graduation. In addition, the schools listed have economics programs that aren’t explicitly linked to a school of thought, like mine is. Essentially every single economics professor at my school believes the same thing, and I wish to attend a school that would provide multiple competing viewpoints on the issues presented. This is the thought process behind schools like Chicago, as they are often seen as centers of competing thought.

There are no specific geographic limitations, although I would prefer schools on the east coast.

I’ve looked into the requirements and I would be fine taking an extra semester if that’s what it takes to complete the core curriculum. I’m a big fan of liberal arts and one of my main reasons for transferring is to broaden my horizon and learn more about interdisciplinary ways to think about economics. So, in summary, I would be more than happy to take an extra semester if it meant I was getting my money’s worth when it comes to the academic experience.

I actually wasn’t aware of the Georgetown loans + parent for full need, so I will be taking them off the list. The other schools listed have given me reasonable numbers through their net-price calculators.

As a finisher, I did apply to Vanderbilt, Chicago, and Columbia out of HS. I mostly shot for Ivies as need-based aid was the only way I could afford to go out of state.

I understand your reasoning…it is sound, and well articulated. Limit talking about the downsides of your current school, and focus on the positives of the schools you are applying to when writing your essays.

I am not sure you have to take gtown off the list….I don’t know if they meet full need using parent loans for all transfers, so it could make sense to see what happens, but just know it might not work out.

I assume these were denials? Any waitlists? I have definitely seen transfers accepted who were previously denied at Vandy, Not personally at Chicago and Columbia but I expect it happens, so if what they are offering appeals, try again.

If you are shut out on this list, will you stay where you are? I doubt you are limited to only a law school path from your current school. What are your career goals? Are you working to secure an internship this summer?

For less reachy options, look at Lehigh (need aware, but meets full need), or U Miami (ditto). If Northwestern appeals at all, you might consider applying there, although that’s another reach.

Make sure to do transfer admission sessions at all these schools, and if they will do a pre-app eval of transfer credits definitely take advantage of that. Good luck.

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Once again, thank you for your reply!

Since I don’t hate my current school, I think I would be fine with staying if I didn’t get into any of the “reaches” for transfer. Personally, I don’t see any point in laterally transferring institutions when my current school is cheap and allows me to be debt-free. That’s why every school I listed was a reach (would significantly improve my opportunities and short-term outcomes).

I’m currently working to secure a more prestigious internship since I have already worked for Congress.

Also, with my current career goal of practicing law, more “prestigious” schools generally have better law school admissions results for their students. While a lot of that is self-selection, as more dedicated and brighter students end up at better schools, these institutions offer opportunities and generally prepare their students better for the law school admissions process. This is also one of the big reasons why I’m content with only pursuing reaches, I don’t think UMiami opens many more doors than does my current school, however, Vanderbilt would. (I’m not trying to disrespect either UMiami or my current institution, just noting general short-term outcomes and performance in the law school admissions process)

For access to federal government internships, look into Hamilton’s Washington, D.C. term.

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If you are in search of prestige then I’d be putting your efforts into preparing to be competitive for a Truman scholarship next year and potentially similar famous scholarships the following year. Utah is a better than average state to compete for Truman from since it is relatively small.

That would be better accomplished by staying at the same institution where you can build relationships with the professors who you need to recommend you and gain leadership positions on campus. Look for example at how last year’s Rhodes scholarship winner at the University of Utah built her resume:

The most critical aspect will be to get a great internship next summer, for example at a top DC think tank. I’d put your efforts into that over the next couple of months, not writing transfer applications. Don’t assume that is all about connections. It’s about having the right experience and applying early with a great tailored application.

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So I wrote a whole bunch about some inconsistencies in your various posts, but really I think it boils down to 2 things:

  1. you talk about the limits of the Econ department in your current school, and about how placements “in the field” aren’t strong- but you don’t want to be an Economist, you want to be a lawyer, so it doesn’t really matter and

  2. you believe that a better ranked school will help you get better internships, prepare you better for law school and help you get into a better law school.

I don’t agree with all those things, but that’s not the point: putting it all together looks like a straight up ‘I didn’t get where I should have on the first try, so I am doing my 2 years of time and now want to transfer up to a better name b/c of the advantages’.

Given all that i will only say, 1) you did the best job of making it not look like a pure prestige play of any poster I have seen yet on CC and 2) please be careful that you will land happily (Dartmouth & UChic are nearly matter & anti-matter), and that you will be able to finish debt free.

ps, if the bit about public policy is genuinely important, Brown has a Public Policy track inside the Economics concentration.

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Law school is very expensive. Generally, students/parents take out HUGE loans if they qualify. Since you are on a “budget”, how are you going to cover those costs?

Please remember that need based aid, at any school, is based on what they believe your need is, not what you think it is. Keep records of those NPC quotes.

I don’t see a reason for your clearly hostile tone when I felt that I explained point 1) pretty clearly.

My current end-goal is pursuing law, however, I do not want to be locked into a situation where I have to pursue law school to achieve the standard of living that I desire. It’s not about whether I want to be an economist or a lawyer, but about being afforded the choice. I don’t know whether my plans to pursue law are going to persist, but I would still want to live comfortably even if I chose not to.

Whether you agree or not, the fact is that prestige does matter. I have been told by numerous senior staffers that their teams will actively look for Ivy/T20/DC students because many of them have matriculated at the same institution and have trust in them.

However, I’m very thankful of being informed about the Brown program. As a first-gen student it’s sometimes hard to find opportunities and I’m incredibly grateful for your help.

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On Capital Hill? sadly, very true. But, @Twoin18 is completely right here:

And looking for support for a Truman (or other) app at your current school (where you are likely to be seen as something of a star) is superb advice. Use that to go to Harvard for grad school.

For jobs in economics: it’s a mixed bag- depends on the type of job.

For law school admissions, no.

Apologies for giving off a hostile tone- that was not intentional. Mildly sharp maybe, but not hostile!

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Thank you for the kind words!

I think a lot of my concern about my undergraduate institution comes from the fact that it is not very well represented at top law schools. Looking at Yale Law Schools numbers from 2019-20, there was not a single student present from my institution (for all three years). https://bulletin.yale.edu/sites/default/files/yale-law-school-2019-2020.pdf

In the same way, Stanford Law School did not have a single student from my school present.

I think it’s clear that top law schools have a preference for top undergrads, and I don’t want to be left out if that makes sense.

What you think is an opinion. And, imo, Yale & Harvard do seem (anecdotally) to have a slight warm spot for their own & each other’s grads. And, Yale is noticeably a smaller school than most of the top law schools so it is always going to have a smaller range.

However: these are the 174 undergrad institutions that 882 students offered places at HLS in 2022 attended: https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

And these are the 89 undergrad institutions that 236 students offered places at YLS in 2022 attended: https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

You must not be at UUtah, as there are 1st year students at both schools who came from there!

tl;dr- you are 100% right that top law schools want top students- but it’s the student, not the name on the diploma that is overwhelming more important in determining who is a top student.

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As an opinion, you may be counterproductively concerned with unpredictable future contingencies. If you concentrate now on important search criteria such as program availability and strength, enhanced opportunities for internships, and general academic suitability, these future contingencies should self-resolve.

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You say you prefer the “east coast”. Really, the only school that is truly on the coast is Columbia. Chicago and Vandy definitely are not east coast school. I guess some folks might consider Dartmouth to be east coast…but it’s actually inland in a somewhat rural area of NH. Georgetown is considered mid-Atlantic, I believe. I guess you could say DC is on the east coast.