<p>I'm currently a rising sophomore at the University of Utah studying math and physics. I'm already involved in a research group at the U of Utah and am also a member of the Honors College (which requires its members to take several humanities courses and write a senior thesis). I have been accepted as a transfer student to Grinnell and am trying to decide whether I should attend. Fit wise, Grinnell is fantastic considering I'm passionate not only about physics and math but also about philosophy, environmental issues, etc. I'm also extremely excited by their lack of curricular requirements. However, I'm worried about a possible lack of research opportunities, as I hope to eventually go on to a top graduate physics program. I think I'm very lucky to already be involved in research and I don't want to give that up. The fewer number of offered courses at Grinnell is not really an issue for me. Also, being from Utah, I enjoy biking and outdoor activities so I'm wondering whether much of that goes on at Grinnell. Note: small town Iowa is not necessarily a drawback for me and I would probably do honors math and physics at Grinnell, both of which really only require good performance in classes and being active in the department (no thesis or anything)</p>
<p>Pros of the U of Utah include: the honors program (both the Honors College and departmental honors); the mountains; I'll have to write a joint math/physics thesis (which doesn't seem to be a prevalent happening at Grinnell); obtaining an Honors College degree with honors in math and physics; supposedly, departmental honors courses are smaller than normal university courses; I'm already doing research;</p>
<p>Cons of the U of Utah: significantly lower ranked and I'm not sure how respected it is in terms of graduate physics admissions; I've lived in Utah my whole life, i.e. new environment would be nice; worse teaching; largely a commuter school with very little "college atmosphere"; generally lower quality students (in terms of passion and intellect) and, probably, less intellectual stimulation/conversation;</p>
<p>So, what do you guys think, especially in terms of possible admittance into top physics graduate programs?</p>
<p>Utah is a very good school for both math and physics. You have already made connections that may lead to additional research opportunities and letters of recommendation. Upper-division math and physics courses will not be large; I think honors is probably irrelevant. I would stay where you are.</p>
<p>well, I"m biased because I"m a Grinnell fan… but since you do want to go to grad school, then I’d place more emphasis on the fit with the student body and the one-time chance to go undergrad to a school with not only a campus culture, but one where you seem like you’d fit in well. You will make friends that will last you a lifetime! </p>
<p>I am just going to write the pros of choosing Grinnell because somebody above has already listed the cons. Having been part of a number of admissions committee (and the way it works, at least on the committee I am on for graduate students) is the professors sit around, files are passed around, a professor says “I would like to take this person” and then the committee looks into funding possibilities. Funding possibilities are getting more and more limited. But it is a two step process, acceptance and then funding possibilities. Usually we don’t accept students without funding because it can be very difficult on both sides (long story). </p>
<p>Okay, so in order to be chosen, and unfortunately these decisions are made fairly quickly (although professors do go over the files in advance of the meeting) and what is really important is that the applicant has a quality that really catches the attention of the professor. Top LAC students such as from Grinnell, Swathmore, Williams, Carleton and Reed are the most sought after students. The reason for this is because many professors believe there is not the same grade inflation as these places as at the large States or even the Ivys. Also, a professor wants to stamp their identity on the graduate student, they don’t usually want somebody who already has a way of doing things, something undergraduates learn in very large laboratories. There students almost always work out when they come into a graduate program because they are in many cases specifically prepared for graduate programs. People from a large state university may be just as good, or even better, but I think a lot of professors feel it is more of a crap shoot, and with funding so tight, and with so many pressures in terms of publication and funding they want to take as little chance as possible. As a rising sophomore I would say you will develop relationships at Grinnell, and you probably gotten a lot of your intro out of the way. Also, especially physics students have the ability to work directly with professors. Also, professors from LACs are willing to go to hell and back to get students they like into good graduate programs, including picking up the phone. You have know idea how important this type of support is for the top, top programs. At large universities many professors barely know who their undergraduates are (it is not the professors fault, it is the types of pressure they are under). </p>
<p>Do you think you have a good chance of getting your name on a publication? Has any undergraduate from your lab ever been able to do that? That might be a reason for staying, but it is rare. Otherwise as great as it feels you can wind up being cannon fodder for the professors and even the graduate students (who have their own agendas and are also under a lot of pressure.)</p>
<p>I do think there’s a good chance of getting my name not just on a publication but on several. Indeed, undergraduates who have worked in the lab and who do work in the lab do present posters, go to conferences and the yearly collaboration meeting, and, as I understand, occasionally publish papers. The undergraduate whose place I took (because she graduated) was an author on at least three papers. The group is actually relatively small: three professors, two postdocs, three graduate students, and two or three undergraduates.</p>
<p>If you don’t mind me asking, what school are you on the admissions committee of? I think it’s safe to say Grinnell is where I’d prefer to be in terms of environment and actual teaching. However, considering the U of Utah’s offerings (departmental honors, honors college, research), I can’t decide whether Grinnell warrants the considerable increase in the amount I’ll have to pay (or, more accurately, the amount my parents will have to pay).</p>
<p>Are you sure your parents would have to pay more? It might be worth it to apply to Grinnell to see what they would offer you financially. I don’t know how that works out for transfers, but it might be worth a try.</p>
<p>I actually have already applied and received $4,000 in aid. From what I had read, I thought I would receive more but, I discovered this after I applied, it’s typically their policy not to offer transfers aid. However, I have submitted a formal request for reconsideration which I should hear back about on Tuesday. Nevertheless, the price would still almost undoubtedly be more than my home state university.</p>
<p>I work at a large state university but in the social sciences. However I talk to friends in the hard sciences and though they have more money the process is pretty much the same. Publications actually do help quite a bit (not so much conference presentations unfortunately because posters are not that rare, even from undergraduates. Publication as an undergraduate is a big thing though. If you think you can get your name on a peer reviewed publication, which is the gold standard, then you definitely have a lot to think about.</p>
<p>We are a middle to upper-middle class family. So no, tuition would be doable without loans and such. But, for me, it’s seems short-minded and silly to go to Grinnell if it won’t provide me with significantly more opportunities after graduation (e.g. graduate school) then if I stay at the U of Utah. I’d rather my parents have THEIR money to travel and do things they enjoy. I tend to guilt trip myself in situations like this. Note: I know there is definitely a lot to say about environment and social life, as opposed to just education and grad school opportunities, but, again, I’m not sure whether the considerably greater price, if education (classes and research) and post-grad opportunities are similar, warrants transferring.</p>
<p>Statistically, Grinnell graduates are among the most likely students in the country to go on to graduate school. A large uni is of course going to offer many things Grinnell can’t, but if your goal is grad school, Grinnell would be a good choice.</p>
<p>I think the motivation of the student is probably as important in grad school admission as anything, though I have no real proof of this. We can’t know how your parents feel about spending the extra money. For my H and for me, it was our happy gift to send our son to Grinnell. In his case, it was one of his least expensive options (because of merit scholarship and lower tuition) but we would have felt just as happy paying for one of his pricier schools if that’s what he had wanted. Are there younger kids in your family who will also need money for college?</p>
<p>Many Grinnell physics majors who just graduated had research published, presented at conferences, etc. I know one who had her research published two or three times. PM me for her contact info.</p>