Transfering

[M_s_Mom]

<p>Yes, Prof. Montgomery teaches Advanced Econometrics in the Fall. Pre-req is either Empirical Methods of Economics or one of two Math classes.</p>

[audeamus]

<p>Hi! I liked your post, it was very honest and not like “my school sucks and I hate it”. You seem to have a lot of really valid concerns. I go to Grinnell too, and while I fit into that culture more, I can see why you’d get kind of tired of it. Not to disparage some of the people you’ve met, but the people I know at Grinnell are in love with Harry Potter (and think it has a lot of literary merit), love Akon as much as they love obscure music, and party but are generally pretty easygoing in conversation. I definitely wouldn’t discourage you from applying transfer if you think it’s the right choice (which it sounds like it might be, all things considered,) but in the meantime you should try seeing what else is out there, people wise. I know that’s easier said than done, but I’d especially try like, first years. They tend to be less pretentious and/or less overworked, and more open to new friends since their groups are not as established. </p>

<p>You sound like a cool person, and you’re clearly very intelligent. But yeah, if I were you I’d get sick of feeling judged for dressing/acting like a normal person, and I think that sort of judgment is a big problem at Grinnell that nobody really addresses. Oh and for what it’s worth: I saw bro and man too. Like all the time. You’re not alone, bro. </p>

<p>As for career expectations, I really don’t know. I’m not very knowledgeable about that. I think as far as jobs go, where you went to college only matters for the first job, and after that it’s how you performed there that determines where you go. If you’re personable and competent enough to secure and do well at a decent job after Grinnell, I think your career goals are well within reach.</p>

[Empowered23]

<p>Well, thank you to everybody for all these responses! I’m really sorry for the month-plus lapse. I’ve not even been busy, I just sort of forgot about it. But anyways, I’ve realized a few things being back. As culturally detached from the culture I do feel at times, I’ve realized that I really did miss my friends here. Of course, this important because my attachment to people here will definitely contribute to my final decision about this. What I may have understated in my previous posts is that I do appreciate the people here (in general). </p>

<p>Yeah, I’ve run into some really arrogant and cocky people who are reminiscent of the sterotypical Ivy Leaguer. But there are so many people here who I would rather talk to than my friends back home who are cookie cutter suburbanites. The familiarity of culture is something I still have difficulty with sometimes, but the good news is that I feel that my friends have become more receptive and have even adopted a few aspects of my culture. The one thing I’ve always maintained is that I’ve learned a lot from people here. </p>

<p>Whether I think of this knowledge as worthwhile developing me for the particular future I want (just as a person with experience, I would say yes though), I still have yet to say. </p>

<p>Just to clarify to people too, I am not exclusively considering transfering to a state school. I used the term “state school” a lot just as an easy way to just generically refer to kids with the culture and career aspirations that I’m used to (white collar middle class, suburban, what most people perceive as “boring”). I mentioned that I briefly visited
Illinois Wesleyan, which is a LAC in Illinois. I didn’t stay overnight, but I think I saw enough that I just wanted to say IWU was basically a state school culture (even the heavy frat emphasis) compressed to an enrollment of 2000 kids. </p>

<p>

Well, if your friends make fun of you because of what college you go to, those aren’t very grown up friends, are they?

</p>

<p>I really would love to say that maturity will translate into better career prospects, but I’m skeptical of that. But again, that’s why I’ve asked everybody here who most likely have more experience about this than I do. </p>

<p>

The thing about Grinnell I’ve noticed, though, is that because it is small, there are not always going to be many people sharing a particular interest, so that may explain some of the frustration you’re feeling, too.

</p>

<p>I’d like to think that is the case. Again, I’m just accustomed to having friends who listened to same music, played the same video games, watched the same movies, etc. It’s hard for people to appreciate the diversity of interests… I’m guess I’m just not a person who picks up new interests easily. Like I said, I discuss music with like two people on
campus and sports with maybe five people. My frustration is probably because these are just things I’ve always understood to be widespread. I guess the way I am phrasing it doesn’t make it sound like a legitimate grievance, though. </p>

<p>

Reading your post, it seems as though you are struggling with the idea of a liberal arts education. Young people have a hard time understanding that a solid liberal arts education–including fine writing and speaking skills–is preparing them for many different jobs. It is especially difficult when their friends are studying engineering,
nursing, or some other major that has a fairly clear career path.

</p>

<p>The freshman in high school part of me already wanted to go to a liberal arts school because I had this narrow perception that people who are proficient with humanities and social science just fit bitter at a LAc (some of my high school friends were surprised that Grinnell had science programs, not a joke). So of course, after college, I realized that I was mortal and in fact, not nearly as good with social science and humanities that I thought myself to be. </p>

<p>Realizing I was not that smart was simultaenous with me finding
disenchanted with academia and wondering if I should have cared more about finding a career than being an intellectual. I guess I always thought I was in good hands because of my academic achievment in high school that doesn’t exist in college now. And I didn’t realize there was such a widesperad popular conception that LAC grads are not really career orientated. And that’s where I’m at now. </p>

<p>But I really would like someone to comment on this question. Is the difference between the writing and speech ability of a LAC graduate and that of a Directional State graduate really so profound that it gives the LAC a distinct advantage in finding a job? I’ve read some of the Grinnell advertisements and the language they use makes it seem like anybody who isn’t getting a liberal arts education is going to end up as sycophantic automatons who don’t know how to do anything that is formula based. </p>

<p>

While some liberal arts colleges are adding more business or career-oriented majors, Kington doesn’t favor such an approach for Grinnell. He noted that the college has debated the idea many times over the years, going back to when land-grant universities were created with a more practical orientation than that of liberal arts colleges. But
with “people living longer and having multiple careers,” Kington said he believes students are better off with writing and other communication skills, quantitative literacy and “a broad understanding of the world and how it got there,” plus the imagination to think about how the world might improve than they would be with a more career-oriented undergraduate experience.

</p>

<p>I’ve heard some people actually scoff at the idea of introducing a business major at Grinnell here, but I think I would feel so much more secure if there were perhaps an introductory accounting class (there is an advanced one taught by a notoriously difficult and terrible Economics professor) or even some kind of “marketing” class that had a liberal arts spin on it by tossing in some kind of sociology and psychology angle. </p>

<p>

Are you going in to major debt by attending Grinnell vs your state U? As far as academics go, yes, Grinnell is really challenging. My son manages to get his work done, have a social life, a job (only a few hours a week) and get a little sleep, but he went in very well prepared. </p>

<p>I know that a lot of other students are struggling but there are
support services too. And yes, the Career Development office. I’ll admit, I dropped out of my LAC and went to nursing school back in the 70s. My Dad was dying and I wanted a concrete job skill. I don’t regret it, but I do have big holes in my general education that I try to fill by reading a lot.

</p>

<p>The cost I would pay at a state school would actually be significantly more because I was given a very generous financial aid package here. So really, it would be more financially sound for me to stay here. I don’t often think of that as the reason I would want to stay - but there have been times where I have said I would be “stuck” here because of the cost of transfering. </p>

<p>

The first is fit - sounds like you haven’t really found it thus far at Grinnell. It is telling that you are still putting so much weight on the opinions of your high school friends, and your parents, all of whom seem to have a set of values somewhat different from those espoused at Grinnell. By sophomore year, most college students no longer consider this group to be their primary point of reference.

</p>

<p>You make a very good point, but I think the culture differences are relevant. It’s true that many of high schools have moved on - but I think of them as doing pretty much the same thing as they did in high school. I would be surprised if they had to endure a cultural adapation like I did (maybe other than just the general transition to college life). </p>

<p>We grew up playing football and frisbee all the time, listening to alternative and classic rock, and watching all the dumb comedy films. I’d like to think my high school friends are still doing that with their new college friends. I’ve replaced those things with watching movies for satirical intent, comparing history and culture between regions of the
United States, discussing linguistics, the lines between biological fact and racism, etc. At the same time, conversation can be extremely extraneous - I’ve been in a room where two of my friends argued intensely about the connotations the words of “utilize” vs. “use” in academic writing. </p>

<p>

Third, if prestige or name recognition in the non-academic community is critical to you, then indeed Grinnell may not be a great choice. The academic and professional community know Grinnell well and respect it highly. Your high school friends may not, and you have to decide how much that matters to you.

</p>

<p>I’ve expressed that the lack of name recongition is frustrating, but I’ve always grouped “non-academic” with “professional” - again, I wouldn’t know what is actually the case. It’s more than my friends and family assume that I will have no professional success because of the college I go to. I hope I expressed that I don’t believe all the things they say, but their perceptions have made me wonder about the value of the kind of my education I’m receiving right now. </p>

<p>

Empowered, you did an impressive job of articulating a complex and nuanced situation. Congratulations for that.</p>

<p>A friend’s son was in love with Grinnell until his overnight stay, when he came away feeling like there were a lot of nerds and a lot of partiers, but not a lot of regular, mainstream kids like himself in between. It sounds like your experience has been similar. Grinnell has so many great things going for it that it’s easy to fall in love with the place and not pick up on some of the more subtle but important aspects of the school until you’ve spent more time there. The point was driven home quickly for him when he </p>

<p>couldn’t find anyone who wanted to watch the World Series with him. He went to Carleton instead and loves it.

</p>

<p>Thank you. And Carleton? I wasn’t aware that they were mainstream than us - their similar ranking on the top LACs has always made me assume they were in the similar vein. Taking the example of watching sports with people - I really enjoy watching pro football and I really could just meet people from our football team and watch the games with them - but </p>

<p>I don’t really know these people and I just don’t think I would ever fit in with any kind of the athletic group kind of cliques they have in colleges, not being athletic enough to be on any team, really. </p>

<p>

You would have no trouble transferring from Grinnell into any number of good schools, even with a 3.0. Your friends might not have heard of Grinnell, but any college you would be thinking of going to (especially in Illinois) knows and respects Grinnell.

</p>

<p>Thank you for that, that actually is a really reassuring statement for me.</p>

[Empowered23]

<p>

Hi! I liked your post, it was very honest and not like “my school sucks and I hate it”. You seem to have a lot of really valid concerns. I go to Grinnell too, and while I fit into that culture more, I can see why you’d get kind of tired of it. Not to disparage some of the people you’ve met, but the people I know at Grinnell are in love with Harry Potter (and think it has a lot of literary merit), love Akon as much as they love obscure music, and party but are generally pretty easygoing in conversation. I definitely wouldn’t discourage you from applying transfer if you think it’s the right choice (which it sounds like it might be, all things considered,) but in the meantime you should try seeing what else is out there, people wise. I know that’s easier said than done, but I’d especially try like, first years. They tend to be less pretentious and/or less overworked, and more open to new friends since their groups are not as established. </p>

<p>You sound like a cool person, and you’re clearly very intelligent. But yeah, if I were you I’d get sick of feeling judged for dressing/acting like a normal person, and I think that sort of judgment is a big problem at Grinnell that nobody really addresses. Oh and for what it’s worth: I saw bro and man too. Like all the time. You’re not alone, bro.

</p>

<p>Thanks. I hope what you say is true… also, my observation is that the first years at Grinnell this year (class of 2014) are notably more mainstream and adjusted to society for whatever reason.</p>

<p>

D1 felt the same way,at another LAC, and chose not to transfer. This turned out to be a bad decision, she regrets having stayed there.</p>

<p>D2 decided to take the risk and transfer out of her LAC. She established better relationships at her new U immediately, and has been ecstatically happy there. She has spent part of winter break interviewing at things set up through her university, and is very hopeful of appropriate employment after graduation. D1, on the other hand, is floating at sub-subsistence, for a few years now, with no real prospects.</p>

<p>Of course, neither of these outcomes is inevitable, or necessarily typical for that matter. But based on my family’s experiences I have become decidedly pro-transfer in such situations.</p>

<p>In a sense, first two years at LAC with smaller intro courses, + next two at university with more advanced level course offerings, cherry-picks the best of both worlds, IMO.

</p>

<p>Thanks for the personal experience… I’ll have to keep these things in mind.</p>

<p>And tetrishead, I actually have a strong hunch of who you are (and that I might actually know you). I’d like to have a real life conversation if I can properly find you…</p>

[SDonCC]

<p>Empowered, thank you for updating this; it sounds like you’re a bit more reconciled to your situation at Grinnell. I don’t know whether transferring is the right answer for you or not, but my suggestion is that whatever you decide, that you consider a few practical steps, in addition to the great ones suggested by tetrishead, that might help you appreciate what you have at Grinnell while you’re there.</p>

<p>Try to take a business class this summer at a community college near home. </p>

<p>Sign up for flag football in the intramural program, and maybe you can find some sports-watching enthusiasts that way.</p>

<p>Put up a flyer for “frisbee players wanted” in the mailroom where the other notices are. (Or, put a time and place and see who shows up. I remember seeing this over Parents’ Weekend for someone who was organizing bike rides.)</p>

<p>This next suggestion is really one that is more of a psychological change, and I mean it to be constructive, so I hope you will take it in that spirit. It seems to me that you hold yourself back a bit by assuming you know what other people are thinking – whether it’s saying that people don’t think you’re smart because you say “bro” or that football players won’t want to hang out with you because you’re not athletic. Don’t put perceptions of yourself into other peoples’ heads!</p>

<p>Regarding job prospects: who the heck knows what the world will look like when you graduate? Gasoline could be at $10.00 a gallon and there may not be a job to be had for anyone anywhere! Or, computers could automate away something you thought was perfect for you. Or, as happened both to my husband a generation ago and my nephew just a few years ago, you land your dream job right out of college and before you start, they take back the offer because a hiring freeze was just instituted… It would be a pity for you to switch schools simply because you thought it could get you a better job and then there were no jobs to be had. There is not a college in the country that can GUARANTEE you employment no matter how prestigious they are or great their recruiting is.</p>

<p>Also, the practical applications you’re talking about can be learned, as Tetrishead suggested, through internships and also through courses you take post-Grinnell, or in the summers, or perhaps you could study at another college for a semester (instead of study abroad, study domestically). Some employers will actually pay for night school or some further practical education while you’re on the job!</p>

<p>And, sometimes employers prefer a liberal arts rather than a more preprofessional one. I used to work in public relations, and my firm would never hire anyone who studied PR in college. They know that they can teach you the specifics of a job, but that they can’t teach you how to think and adapt to new ideas. </p>

<p>I also don’t know if you’ve sought out any counseling at Grinnell. It might help you to get some things off your chest, and perhaps they can help you sort your issues through.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

[Dairy_State_K8]

<p>Here’s a follow up to SDonCC’s suggestion about off campus study. The following is a link to a Grinnell off-campus program on business and entrepreneurship in Chicago. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/ocs/programs/north_america/chicagobusinessandsociety[/url]”>http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/ocs/programs/north_america/chicagobusinessandsociety&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If I have not successfully pasted the link, go to Grinnell’s off-campus study page and check out the programs in North America. Good luck!</p>

[kellybkk]

<p>Since this thread is, in concept in part, a transfer thread, I will ask: how does one ever approach current Professors and ask them for recommendations to the future college? Doesn’t the mere fact that one is asking a Professor to recommend one for a transfer imply that either that Professor (or the school to which such Professor has devoted his professional life) is not as good as the future college (otherwise, why be tranferring?) . Thus, how can a request for a transfer rec not be taken as other than an insult? In order to avoid that very characterization, how can one position the request?</p>

[SDonCC]

<p>No, it doesn’t mean that the school isn’t “as good,” but that it wasn’t the right place for that student. I would be shocked if any professor at Grinnell wouldn’t be willing to entertain the idea that a student might prefer to go somewhere else. They might reach out to that student, though, to find out more about what’s on his / her mind to see if there’s something they could help them figure out about their experience at the school to make the best decision.</p>

[Zeledonb]

<p>I’m just going forward with one of your points. I’m not going to lie, I came out of a very similar situation as you. My first few weeks here were massive culture shocks and I was self-goved a few times for my err ‘crass’ behavior. (Not that long ago either). I fixed it as time went on, but I still say ‘bro’ and ‘man’ and ‘dude’ and don’t feel as I fit that stereotype at all. I wear polos and don’t play frisbee, and well Grinnell is good because I’ve not felt that out of place, even as I love watching sports and other activities as such.</p>

<p>In reality, everyone here is very complex and will surprise you, so don’t let that be a deciding factor. =) There is a lot of stuff hidden here and a lot of adventures, and why I love it here. So, don’t transfer please? D=</p>