True or False: MUST go to good undergrad school for good grad school

College Search & Selection
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<p>first of all, my original post on this thread (#10) stated that it's not a MUST.</p>

<p>next, i'm not the one who brought up HLS as the illustrative example - i'm merely expanding upon that example to underscore the above point.</p>

<p>yes, there is a wide array of representation at HLS (over 200 colleges).</p>

<p>but what is the real takeaway from that list? </p>

<p>can you really say that it's ok to go to Utah State U. if your aspirations are to attend HLS because USU sent ONE PERSON? Calvin College, Cedarville College, etc. etc. - they all sent 1 person - but what does that tell you about those colleges?</p>

<p>Nothing - what I takeaway from that long list is that those "1 person" individuals were relative academic rock stars at their respective schools (basically THE ONE LUCKY lottery winner). Whereas there are multiple "lottery winners" at the elites. You do the math.</p>

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<p>Just curious, after Havard Med School, then what? We've University of Oklahoma Med school graduate doctors(mostly surgeons) here who make 1.5 million a year. So Havard Med School will be around 3 million???</p>

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<p>People who go to harvard medical school as opposed to lower ranked programs have much better chances at securing positions at top hospitals. For example, virtually every attending physician and surgeon at UCSF graduated from top medical programs while doctors from somewhere such as general hospital of san francisco came from lesser programs.</p>

<p>Working at a better hospital usually means a higher salary and a better working condition.</p>

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<p>hey i have a question. Can you apply to both med school and law school if you meet all the prereqs?</p>

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<p>in response to the original poster's question:</p>

<p>false.</p>

<p>if you really bust your butt and work hard at any school and take advantage of the opportunities offered to you, you'll turn out well, given that the school isn't just a random no-name school. the same goes for if you slack off in college -- just because you're going to a good undergrad school doesn't necessarily mean you can slack and still expect a good grad school in return. you've got to work to deserve your spot in the grad school of your choice when that time comes.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>
[quote]
given that the school isn't just a random no-name school

[/quote]
</p>

<p>er, but that's the point of this thread isn't it?</p>

<p>i.e. if you go to a no-name college does it really matter?</p>

<p>how can you add that little caveat (i.e. you gotta work hard, you gotta take advantage, you gotta kick butt - <em>oh, but as long as don't go to a no-name college</em>)</p>

<p>basically, you are either contradicting yourself by saying "false" or you are giving "false" hope.</p>

<p>if your aspirations are to attend an elite grad school, it's definitely important.</p>

<p>sorry for being so blunt.</p>

27

<p>yes, there are a lot of ivy league graduatues at ivy league law schools. as mentioned earlier, this probably has something to do with the fact that these kids tested extraordinarily well and got into an ivy league school in the first place. it also might have something to do with the fact that you are talking about an ivy league law school. these schools are going to protect their own (else risk of undermining the value of their undergraduate colleges). further, it might also have something to do with the ivy mystique: those who were drawn to it for undergrad are probably more likely to be drawn to it for graduate school.</p>

<p>so yes, if you want to go to an ivy league grad school you would be better off going ivy for undergrad, but probably not as significantly as you would think. fortunately, the ivy league doesnt have a stranglehold on the graduate system like it doe undergrad. state universities can compete on a virtually level playing field.</p>

<p>i can personally attest that its not mandatory to attend an absolutely elite institution to get into a great grad school. while bucknell is certainly not a bad school, most people here would consider it far from the best. my education has been fundamentally solid and instead of being one of the stronger mathematics students at cornell i am one of the two or three strongest at my university. this means getting invited to faculty lunches, lectures and seminars. this means getting involved in the 'good' research. this means countless hours of individual attention outside of class. all things i likely wouldnt have gotten at cornell. </p>

<p>while im not applying to grad school until next year (im graduating in the spring after three years and spending next year teaching and continuing my studies at penn state), i dont hesitate to think that i may have actually benefited by attending an institution where i could 'stand out'. this isnt to say that attending a 'top' school is a bad thing (i actually wanted to go to uchicago, by my mother refused to let me go to a school in a city). and this isnt to say that my strategy was necessarily the better one. rather, i am quite sure that it wasnt as bad a decision as many would make it out to be. in other words, i think too much differentiation is made on this board between what are truly americas elite colleges (top 50 unis and lacs) and what many on this board consider them to be. </p>

<p>so yes, its false. so long as the student body and faculty are strong enough to provide quality preparation the cream will rise to the top.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>but you are the relative "acadamic rock star" i was referring to (by your own words - one of the two or three strongest in your university).</p>

<p>but tell me honestly, what will be the fate of the "average" Bucknell student in the face of future grad school prospects? (the ones that don't stand out, that don't get privileged access to professors, get to go to the lunches, don't get access to the good research, et. al.)</p>

<p>p.s. as for your comments about the Ivies - well, I don't buy this "they have to protect their own".</p>

<p>Are you presuming that all of those Ivy individuals who matriculate into Ivy grad schools are somehow undeserving of their acceptance? That they are just shoo-ins?</p>

<p>TOTALLY BEG TO DIFFER.</p>

<p>I bet you dollars to donuts that those individuals were consistent high performers througout high school, college and will be so throughout grad and post-grad.</p>

<p>Further, in order to rise to the top at an already relatively high base level (at an Ivy undergrad) you've got to reach even higher - your competition level is a notch higher than most places.</p>

<p>It's a serious disservice to throw such a blanket statement like that around. Is it their fault that they were good enough to go to an Ivy? Is it their fault that many Ivies also have Top 5 grad schools?</p>

<p>Gotta call total BS on that.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

besides, it's the PERSON who's successful. a really good student will get into a top grad program regardless of which undergrad college he/she went to.

[/quote]

Still, I think it's important to recognize that it's not always about you in the application process. It can also be about the people from whom you got your recs, the people with whom you did your undergrad research... and the people on your floor freshman year who encouraged you or discouraged you to work really hard.</p>

<p>The environment at top schools is pretty different, and I think an important element of that environment is that hard work and studiousness is really valued and promoted. At MIT, it's perfectly okay to miss a hot frat party to study, and I think that kind of peer encouragement helps students in the long run. Let's not forget that there are plenty of really intelligent kids who get distracted by life in college and lose the ability to end up in a top tier grad school.</p>

<p>As for the "recommendation" element, I'll tell a little vignette. I worked very closely with a rather famous scientist during my undergrad years. He wrote an absolutely smashing recommendation for my graduate school applications. I applied to nine schools (including all of the top five programs in my field), and got into eight. The one I didn't get into? Well, the chair of the admissions committee has been in a rather public feud with my recommender for the past decade or so. Interesting.</p>

<p>At a top school, I got more personal attention from professors and mentors than I would have had I chosen the other school on my list (OSU). I had more opportunities to do research, and critically, I had more opportunities to do ground-breaking research. I was surrounded by students who thought that hard work was a virtue. </p>

<p>I'm still the same person I would have been if I had chosen OSU. But I don't think I'd be headed to the top graduate program in my field.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
can you really say that it's ok to go to Utah State U. if your aspirations are to attend HLS because USU sent ONE PERSON?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>yes, i think it is okay. this is under 2 assumptions about the individual. first, that individual really wants to go to Utah State (or wherever else), and second, that individual got into a top undergrad college, which i would like to assume is the OP's scenario. because obviously, this person is going to be the "relative academic rock star" at the lesser-regarded university. </p>

<p>of course, if this person doesnt have the ability to gain admission into a top undergrad college (or more accurately, the potential to gain admission into a top grad school), then no, it's not okay to go to utah state or wherever, but he/she probably doesnt have a choice. it's not the same story as a top student who has a choice between a good undergrad college and other colleges. </p>

<p>(on the flip side, an individual who scores 160 on their LSAT most likely isn't going to get into harvard law, whether they went to harvard or utah state for undergrad.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Calvin College, Cedarville College, etc. etc. - they all sent 1 person - but what does that tell you about those colleges?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>like you said, nothing really. it's not about the college at all. it's about the individual at that college. i dont really think those who go to lesser regarded undergrad programs are necessarily lucky lottery winners, but rather someone who is qualified to get into harvard law. if a harvard law-quality student decided to transfer from his top college to some other lesser regarded college elsewhere, does that make him/her stupider? will his LSAT decrease? will his GPA decrease? will he stand out less academically? most likely not. </p>

<p>i do agree with molliebatmit that there are advantages to going to top colleges. there's a reason why they're prestigious and considered good. most people would matriculate at one if they had the chance. but there's always a few who want to go elsewhere for whatever reasons, and i think that is okay. they will most likely achieve success despite having passed up going to a top college because they are after all, still top college material.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
75% of the slots at top grad schools are filled with undergrads from the top 25 universities and LACs

[/quote]

It may be true if you define "grad school = medicine + law". Not true if you define grad school in more general terms.</p>

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<p>How would NYU be for an undegrad school if I wanted to go to a top grad school?</p>

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<p>Dale and Kreuger reported that GETTING IN to a prestigious undergraduate school was a strong predictor of later life sucess (defined as income), but ATTENDING such a school was not. That is, the people who were admitted to top colleges, but attended less famous institutions did just as well as those who attended the top colleges. So they concluded that the difference lay in what the students brought with them to college, rather than what the college gave them while they were there. </p>

<p>Of course, this may be in part due to selection. Of those admitted to Harvard and their state university, the ones who chose the state institution may have been those who knew they would thrive in that environment. So it does not mean that everyone with that choice would be as well off at the less famous place.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Are you presuming that all of those Ivy individuals who matriculate into Ivy grad schools are somehow undeserving of their acceptance? That they are just shoo-ins?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>youre drawing pretty impressive conclusions from my relative dearth of words. first, your conclusion contradicts with my statement that many of the top high school students enroll at ivies. they dont fall asleep once they get there. consequently, im sure most of those who end up at ivy grad schools from ivy undergrads are completely deserving--nearly all of them, in fact. however, is it unfair to assume that ivy league grad schools would give the benefit of the doubt to ivy league undergrads? what would it look like if harvard law suddenly started enroll more students from the stanfords, dukes and chicagos? </p>

<p>at the end of the day i intended my comment to make a fairly simple point: i wouldnt be surprised to see ivy league students proportionally overenrolled at ivy league grad schools compared to other top grad schools (i presented another possible reason for this as well). this has nothing to do with unqualified students getting in... the kid with a 1550 sat and perfect gpa who was rejected by harvard ugrad was not unqualified. its just about ivy league tending to pick their own, all else equal, among the many highly qualified applicants. in fact, it just solidifies your point that there is a benefit to going ivy. i just wouldnt expect the numbers in mits graduate science departments to be too much those at harvard law school.</p>

<p>also, no, the average bucknell grad doesnt have the same opportunities as the average harvard grad. however, the average bucknell grad and the average harvard grad are two different people. how would the average bucknell student do at harvard? probably not exceptionally well. and how would the average harvard student do at bucknell? well, a lot of them would probably be in my boat. the harvard students WOULD be superstars at most other schools, just as they were in high school. byus representation (since it attracts a lot of top mormon applicants despite not being a 'top' school) at harvard law makes this case. </p>

<p>on your last point, im not entirely sure where you are going. is the 'cream' higher at harvard? probably. but i doubt that has as much to do with competition as youd like to think. being in that position requires a tremendous amount of self-motivation, something competition can influence but cannot ultimately create or deny. ive got seven mathematics textbooks and numerous academic papers on my desk right now, none of which have a thing to do with any of my undergraduate courses. i suspect the same is true of the top students at every other school, harvard included, as well.</p>

<p>again, i am in no way putting down ivy league schools or any other of americas top colleges. they ARE the best colleges in the country and anyone who gets into one should seriously consider attending--i did. but ultimately the relative value-added of an ivy league education is not as significant as some people on this board would lead you to believe. all else equal, go to the better school. but all else isnt equal in most situations and all too often people on this board pick the school with the higher number beside it instead of picking the environment that will be most conducive to success. for some thats harvard. for others, it isnt. and for those for whom it isnt their opportunities are far from limited.</p>

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<p>Well said.</p>

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<p>My friend's brother got into MIT and Stanford grad and he went to University of MD, Baltimore County for undergrad.</p>

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<p>well there are always rare cases</p>

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<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>Quote:
75% of the slots at top grad schools are filled with undergrads from the top 25 universities and LACs</p>

<p>It may be true if you define "grad school = medicine + law". Not true if you define grad school in more general terms.

[/quote]

I also found this to be true when interviewing for biology PhD programs.</p>

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<p>IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT UNDERGRAD AS LONG AS YOU DO WELL. i applied to EXTREMELY competitive grad students (acceptance rates of around 3, yes three, percent), and i didnt attend anything near an ivy. people at the interview days had extremely varied academic backgrounds.</p>

<p>I also often attend yale grad student functions, with med, law, business, nursing, etc students, and again, their backgrounds run the gamut from Ivy schools to 4th tier colleges. so you cant generalize and say that you MUST go to a good undergrad school. just get good grades, rock the standardized tests, do some research, and you'll be set. true story.</p>

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<p>also, how many people on this thread actually have applied to grad schools? if you havent, you really cant understand what admissions committees are looking for- it is vastly different from undergrad admissions</p>