I’m going to keep out of the football discussion…suffice it to say that I think that there’s too much of an emphasis on althletics everywhere and I think that football is a particularly despicable sport (let’s just say that I’m not a big fan of head injuries).
As for Rice vs. Vanderbilt, both are excellent schools. I see three stark differences between them:
the presence or absence of Greek life and its effect on campus culture. Greek life is very big at Vandy – ca. 43% of students belong to a fraternity or sorority. The percentage of women participating in Greek life is higher than that among men: ca. 50% of women versus ca. 35% of men. 50% is a LOT.
One of the most disturbing aspects of Greek life at Vanderbilt is the socioeconomic gap between those participating in Greek life and those that do not. This article discusses the ramifications of this disparity:
During her visit, my D perceived Vanderbilt as being much more segregated racially and socio-economically than other campuses, including – and especially – Rice. Her perception was that Greek life was at the heart of this social stratification.
Rice has no Greek life – its self-governing residential colleges provide a sense of community and a much more heterogeneous grouping racially and socio-economically.
Size: Rice, with under 4,000 undergraduates, is much smaller than Vanderbilt, with nearly 7,000 undergraduates.
Campus and location. Rice has a stunning, tree-lined campus adjacent to a museum district; Vanderbilt has two campuses with a medical school/hospital between them. Personally, I wouldn’t want to live in either Houston or Nashville, but if I had to pick, Houston has a lot more to offer culturally.
I think that your D should apply to – and visit – both. There’s nothing wrong with having a “parents choice” school or two in the mix, but ultimately, your D has to decide which school is the best fit academically, socially, financially, etc.
"I wish we could stop with the “Vandy”. We don’t call Harvard “Harvy” or Princeton “Prin-Prin”. It really just feeds into all the stereotypes that make my daughter skeptical. "
Would she be offended by being called a Yalie, Brownie or Dukie?
My DS has applied RD for Vanderbilt this year. It is a school that us parents put on and took off the list several times. My DS wasn’t really interested. In the end, based on a couple recommendations from friends, and reading the Princeton Review, we decided to make a trip there as part of a vacation last summer. It rained cats and dogs the whole time, so we were sprinting between buildings in the rain during the tour, but regardless, I was amazed at how much we all liked the school. The information session was down to earth, funny, informative, and well run. I don’t recall any mention of football during the presentation except perhaps a factual note about being in the SEC. The campus is beautiful, and all the tour guides had on shorts and T-shirts. We saw no significant evidence of the stereotypical preppy culture/dressy clothes/makeup/jewelry. etc. Our guide said she wore shorts and t-shirts to class every day. We did hear a lot of ma’am and sir which I personally think would be great for my son to adopt.
While there is a large Greek presence in terms of numbers (50% of women and 36% of men according to the 2016-2017 common data set), there is no residential Greek life (I don’t think - correct me if I’m wrong), and all the Greek houses are on campus and under the watchful eye of the university. It didn’t seem to bother my son even though he’s not really interested in joining a fraternity right now.
Our tour guide talked about how balanced school and social life is there, and gave examples of her own experiences. The word balance is used to describe the school a lot, and after finishing our visit, I would agree. We left thinking “Wow, this is a great school.” My DS said it was the only school in the southern part of the US that he liked (he is not basing his preferences on a cultural perspective but weather - he says he prefers to deal with cold winters rather than hot summers - which I think is ironic since he was born in Texas).
Vanderbilt by far and away blew us all away after the tour. It was on a list and quickly became on the short-list and then was chosen over Ivies for which my child was accepted. My child walked off that campus saying “this is where I think I want to go” I am sure it is not for everyone, just like no school is for everyone. Greek life is apart of the school, but my child is involved in 3 total organizations - the other 2 have nothing to do with greek. I do not believe that greek life is the predoiminant force or experience on campus at all. The one thing I know is that Vandy is on the top of many kids list and is growing in popularity for so many reasons. And unfortunately, it is so hard to get into these days, many do not get in. It is very challenging academically once in, but I do believe it is the work hard, play hard. And finally, having the Commons - freshman living community is one of the best things I think colleges can do for incoming freshman. Another reason my child chose Vandy over other schools that had freshman spread out over campus or some in one area and other in another. The residential greek life for sororities is that only the top officers of the house live in it. It is not big enough for all girls to have the chance. The same exists for the frats as well. And yes, they are on campus so under the watchful eye…I even heard that when you go to frat parties you have to scan in with your ID! I was impressed.
@LoveTheBard I have a hard time with this statement
“During her visit, my D perceived Vanderbilt as being much more segregated racially and socio-economically than other campuses, including – and especially – Rice. Her perception was that Greek life was at the heart of this social stratification”
A visit? One day, one tour? That in my opinion would be very hard to ascertain. I visited the campus and would never walk away with those strong opinions on my first visit/tour. My child goes there and I have been there 3 times …I do not see it segregated racially or more socio economically than any other campus I have visited. And I have visited ALOT between all of my kids. That is a big assumption to make on “a visit” As far as Greek life, it is expensive on ANY CAMPUS as the sororoties/frats themselves do not set the fees. They are set by the national chapters. So, if they are cost prohibitive at Vandy, the same would be at Alabama, Wake Forest, etc. I always find that argument so silly. Sometimes I think the opinions on cc are fueled by underlying jealousy or perhaps denial from said school. I have facts…I have a child who attends. I have gone for weekends at a time to Nasville/vandy. Please don’t comment on generalizations for “a visit”
@LvMyKids2 - For someone that has a hard time accepting someone else’s observations, you make quite a few assumptions yourself.
For your information, after receiving an acceptance from Vanderbilt that was coupled with not one – but TWO – full tuition scholarships (the Cornelius Vanderbilt AND the Chancellor’s), D spent three days/ two nights on campus hosted in the dorms by other scholarship winners. She attended classes and social events and got a good feel for the school. Those were enough “facts” for me, thank you very much. (In the meantime, I got to sample Nashville on my own and was less than impressed with the kitschiness and the honky-tonk. The performances I saw at the songwriter’s festival – with one exception – Glen Campbell’s daughter, whose songs about her father broke my heart – made me feel like I was taking a ride on the Born-Again-Christian Express, and the museums were laughably (literally) bad. There were a few nice restaurants in the area around the school, though, so at least there’s that…
So please don’t tell me what I should and should not be able to comment on…D saw as much of Vanderbilt as she did of most of the other schools she visited, and came away with a fairly good idea about each and every one of them.
Oh, and there are plenty of others with first-hand knowledge that express some of the concerns my D had:
My D roommate is a swimmer at Vanderbilt. They do practice a lot, but they did their spring training at Atlantis!! D is a HS swimmer, but not good enough for D1.
A lot of people are surprised to see that D picked Vanderbilt over MIT, Chicago. She really enjoys her life there, she didn’t participate in Greek life, but has three leadership positions around the campus, writes for three publications, doing research in a lab and DJ at a campus radio station among other things. Yes, I do see the girls you described on the campus when I visit her too, but I’d like to remind my D…during her interviews with college alumnus, Vandy’s alumni is the prettiest and accomplished lawyer. Don’t judge the book by the cover. Some great books also have great covers.
D, a freshman, is in friend group of 8-10, and some of them are religious, but others are not. There are great diversity in her group in ideas, races, interests and academic majors. Most of her friends don’t do greek life, but they have a lot to do on the weekends. Again, in a school of 6000+, you will find your tribe!
@LvMyKids2 - School culture rarely changes radically over the course of three years. Moreover, my D’s observations were made less than a year ago. And again, whatever lack of diversity / social stratification she observed she attributed to the presence of Greek life.
This, from Vanderbilt’s own website quoting statistics from a NYTimes study on economic diversity, is from 2017:
“… Renewed critique of Vanderbilt’s lack of economic diversity comes amid a New York Times study which ranked Vanderbilt as 1st for its proportion of students from the top one percent, (23% of Vanderbilt students come from from families who made at least $630,000 annually) and 59th for it’s “share of students from the bottom fifth (families who make less than $20,000 annually) among “65 other elite colleges.”… Vanderbilt’s overall social mobility index ranks 36th out of 65 schools.”
I’m not saying that Vanderbilt has not been making an effort towards greater diversity in recent years, I was merely stating what my D’s observations were and comparing them to what she observed at Rice, which was the point of the thread.
(@SincererLove – so glad your D is happy with her choice and has found her tribe!)
*Not sure why friends would give someone a hard time over attending any top 15 (or top 100) university.
*ALL the top 20 U’s are overrepresented by affluent students. No margin-no mission. Someone must keep the lights on and pay for need based aid. Only the top 3% of HS grads can afford the full COA yet the top 20’s have 45%+ full pay students…coincidence?
*VU’s racial demographics are more similar to those of high school graduates than any other top 20 U.
*VU students rank their quality of life, happiness, and base city among the best in the nation.
*VU offers both Greek and residential living options. Options are good.
*90% of students live on campus which helps create an academic community. Greeks live with non-Greek students.
More and more of todays top high school students want it all: top academics, available faculty, reputation, administration, Greek and/or residential housing, elite research opportunities, D1 sports, school sprit, fun city for young adults, great quality of life, happiness, need AND merit aid, undergraduate focus AND top graduate schools. VU is one of a handful of universities that can offer all of the above . So, visit and see if it is a good fit.
@bud123 excellent points. And I may add that it could be more than 90% of students live on campus, as technically undergraduates are required to live on campus all 4 years. And yes, greeks live with non-Greek students because the greek housing is so so limited to the officers only. I actually think the mix works out nice, atleast from I have seen from my own child! Thank you for your input
As someone who went to Vanderbilt for law school and has a child at Rice I can say they are both wonderful institutions. If your child is fortunate enough to be admitted to both and gets comparable merit/financial aid from both then your child will have a very hard decision to make. She should visit both admitted student events if she can. Then her decision might be clearer. Of course if she makes the athletic team at one and not the other that could factor in too. Both rank very high for happiest students. Nashville and Houston are both great towns for off campus activities. My daughter got a good feel for the school by attending the Vanderbilt Summer Academy for 2 years. SEC sports at Vandy (yes I said it) are more nationally recognized than the sports at Rice. However, both have great baseball teams. Students do not attend the sporting events at Rice in big numbers as they do at Vandy. My daughter did not want Greek life so Rice was a better fit for her. I would characterize my daughter as a happy nerd who is more introverted than extroverted. She loves Rice.
like @SincererLove D, my S is also 100% happy at Vanderbilt. he also gave up better ranked schools ( like Penn, JHU). He didn’t experience any biases as an Indian kid from CA. His tribe is well diversified (Asian, Afrian American, Caucasian and Even eastern Europe). He gets invited to greek parties and participates in cultural programs and attends sports events. It all comes down to how each kid looks to utilize what’s available and you can’t purely go by stats or narrow thinking!
I also wonder if ORMs thinks differently from URMs about college diversity.
Bard’s numbers above are legit. But I think that speaks more to Rice than Vandy.
Rice is probably the single most diverse top 25 private school there is. Probably due to its heavy STEM curriculum and also its legacy as a free institution (a la Cooper Union) for Texas residents. 37% white, 24% Asian, 14% Latino and 7% AA. But extremely non-diverse in one way – 38% Texans! 16% Pell, $161k median family income.
Vandy’s economic and racial diversity numbers are fairly comparable to its top 25 private peers – Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, Duke, etc. 15% Asian, 12.4% AA, 11% Latino. 15% Pell, $204k median family income. Vandy does a decent amount of merit money (for a top 25 school), so no surprise that its SES stats are a bit higher than the schools that do need-based only.
My kid liked Rice a lot, but strongly preferred Vandy. Primarily factor was Rice’s much smaller size as compared to Vandy.
Given Vandy’s southern greek prep reputation, I’ve been surprised how muted that it. Kid’s friends are from all over the place geographically (Chicago seems to be the biggest sender) and those friends check the diversity boxes to an almost comical degree – gay kids, non-binaries, Muslim kids, black kids, Asians, vegans, internationals, etc. You have to look a bit to find the blond prepsters with southern accents.
Your kid would be lucky to go either place. Most years, 1/2 or 2/1 in happiest sudents. Use the search function – there’s several Rice vs. Vandy threads to check out.
There are too many different ways to measure diversity and too much pseudo-diversity to know how truly diverse a university is. Yes, 43% of Rice’s freshman class are from Tx which makes it the least diverse geographically. On the other hand I don’t think much diversity is gained by taking students from Dallas & Houston vs Atlanta, Denver, Chicago, Boston and LA when the top students come from similar backgrounds: affluent suburb’s of large metro areas who have had an academically enriched school environment. You sometimes get more diversity selecting students who look the same and grew up 10 miles apart.
I take race diversity with a grain of salt as well. If you are an URM but come from a well funded family and attend an academically enriched high school you are really a pseudo-diverse student–you look different but have had a similar upbringing to the rest of the non-diverse students. Also race data is self reported by students trying to get accepted. If you are an ORM for heavens sake check off 2 or more races ( their must be some mixing somewhere with your ancestors) or leave the question blank. Rice for example reports their freshman class is 29% Asian, 29% Caucasian, 18% Hispanic and 7% AA. What they (and other U’s) don’t tell you is of the 11% international students 78% come from Asian countries. So the data reported by universities is not necessarily what you see on campus.
I agree any student would be blessed to attend either Rice or VU.
My daughter might be a blue eyed blonde, but taking the most rigorous courses her school offers and being in the district’s Engineering Academy means most of her close friends are Asian. They also see her running around in only workout clothes with wet hair piled on her head. The idea of her at a school with a southern preppy reputation and girls running around in Vineyard Vines Ts tucked into white short shorts cracks them up. She would get razzed and maybe have to send them some pics countering their idea of the school.
I get that it appears choices are good with Greek life, but if you find Greek life distasteful (as she does, I was in a sorority but my experience doesn’t lead me to campaign hard for her to change her perception), I think your experience would be much better at a school with no Greek system. Being a GDI is a label you may or may not want. A school without Greek system is more likely to be populated with those who feel similarly about it and also one where you aren’t singled out for your views on it.
Bertie, most of the students with the academic profile needed to get into a top 15 university come from a similar high school exposure as your daughter. Most have also excelled in an EC. Most come from an upper middle-class suburb of a large metro area. Yes, there is some self-selection of colleges by applicants. I am not a fan of stereotypes. Todays VU is not the VU of the 1980’s. The majority are not white, wealthy, Christian, extraverted, southern, blonde and beautiful. Rice students aren’t all minority students from Texas who are academically gifted but socially delayed.
Both have students walking around in t-shirts and workout clothes and students in Vineyard Vines. Both have students that will upgrade their wardrobe while in college. Both are large enough to find your comfort zone socially. Both have happy students who love their school and report a wonderful quality of life.
Don’t let her friend’s false stereotypes prevent your daughter from exploring VU and other fabulous universities. As a junior keep an open mind and cast a wide net when exploring colleges. Unless you are a five-star football or basketball player all top 15 universities are reach schools for students in the top 5% of their class and top 2% SAT/ACT scores.
@BertieMom I am laughing so much from reading your comment below…
“My daughter might be a blue eyed blonde, but taking the most rigorous courses her school offers and being in the district’s Engineering Academy means most of her close friends are Asian. They also see her running around in only workout clothes with wet hair piled on her head. The idea of her at a school with a southern preppy reputation and girls running around in Vineyard Vines Ts tucked into white short shorts cracks them up”
I have been on the Vandy campus 3 times as my child is a freshman there and I can tell you girls are not running around in Vineyard Vines tucked into white shorts. What I saw was girls wearing ripped jeans, oversized comfy sweats, workout gear and most in Vandy tshirts or t-shirts they had gotten from one of the various organizations the kids were in. Or Vandy sweatshirts. Trust me, southern preppy is long gone.
