Turning down Ivy's and prestige privates for Michigan

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of Michigan
61

Much2Learn, here is what I said:

“I have always said that the difference between the students at Michigan and the students at other top universities is negligible to non-existent. 75%-90% of Michigan’s undergraduate students are statistically indistinguishable from those at Brown, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn…”

So let us break it down according to each of those universities’ Common Data Set:

Brown:
Mid 50% ACT 31-34

Cornell
Mid 50% ACT 30-34

Georgetown
Mid 50% ACT 30-34

Michigan
Mid 50% ACT 29-33

Northwestern
Mid 50% ACT 31-34

Penn
Mid 50% ACT 31-34

I am not sure which of those universities has a 32-35 mid-50% ACT range. I do not think a 1-1.5 point average difference is significant. I stand by my comment in quotes above.

As for the cross-admits won, I would take it with a very large grain of salt. First of all, cross admit figures are not based on fact but popular opinion. Secondly, when it comes to the decisions of 17-19 year olds, I am not sure popular opinion is an accurate reflection of quality. Admittedly, roughly 65% of students choosing Columbia vs Michigan or Cornell vs Michigan or Northwestern vs Michigan will not end up at Michigan. In the case of Michigan vs Brown or Penn, roughly 85% will decline Michigan. Michigan and Georgetown will split right down the middle. But I wonder if ED commitments have an impact on those figures (with the exception of Georgetown, which does not employ ED). Not that it matters; like I said, those cross-admit decisions are not indicative of Michigan’s academic standards or of its standing in academe and industry.

62

@alexandre “I do not think a 1-1.5 point average difference is significant. I stand by my comment in quotes above.”

Well at least you have shifted from “statistically indistinguishable” to not thinking the differences are significant. I think that is more accurate.

So given that, do you also think that Michigan students are not significantly different from Northeastern, Case Western Reserve, Lehigh, Wisconsin, Illinois, Tulane, Southern Methodist, BYU, and maybe even (gasp) Ohio State? lol

Please keep in mind that the wrong answer to this question may cause your diploma to be immediately revoked. Amusedly awaiting your response. :slight_smile:

63

Alexandre:

  1. you have Michigan at 29-33, but this Michigan link has the composite ACT at 30-34: http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/student-profile That data is shown for ENTERING rather than for ADMITTED students, so I take that to hold for the 6,071 new enrolled students (2015, with 2016 stats likely higher, given trend of last 10 years). If the characterization is accurate (actual entering students rather than merely admitted), then Michigan’s inter-quartile is competitive with the lower half of the Ivys;

  2. if the composite of 30-34 is accurate, there is a further fact that pertains: Michigan’s upper quartile students have ALL scored above 34 on the ACT. Note that Brown’s entire undergraduate population is around 6300 students, so Michigan’s top cohort is larger than the entire school/Brown and scored higher than all but around 1,500 students at Brown (some of the Michigan students may have actually scored higher than the top Brown cohort, but that can’t be determined without further granularity. On the same logic: Georgetown has around 7,600 undergrads total; Northwestern 8,300 undergrads total; Penn has around 10,400 undergraduates; Cornell 14,315. Michigan has a far larger cohort above 30 than ALL of these other schools, in fact larger than ALL of the Ivys at that level.

So your comment that 70%-90% of are indistinguishable from Penn et.al. is correct, but doesn’t go far enough.
Therefore I disagree with you only in the sense that your statements are not strong enough.

Much2learn’s comment is that for a given school (which is presumptively Michigan) 29% are BELOW 30 on the ACT and school #2 has 10% BELOW the figure. With an undergraduate population of around 28,000, that means Michigan has around 20,000 undergraduates ABOVE that level and if we take the largest other school, Cornell, that means roughly 12,883 Cornellians are ABOVE that particular cutoff. So looking at the left tail is a tad disingenuous: Michigan has roughly 150% of the students as Cornell above that somewhat arbitrary cutoff (it does have some meaning as 30 is roughly the Ivy 25th percentile). If 30 is the rough Ivy 25th percentile, and 70% of Michigan students are above that level, then 20,000 kids at Michigan would be Ivy/Brown/Cornell/Dartmouth equivalent.

As to the cross admits figure, those figures are like any other statistical poll/survey: the margin of error is probably wider than a political polls at roughly +5/-5 on each side: Michigan at the boundary, improves 5% and the competing school drops 5%. All of that said, these are not very useful figures. Fit is what counts and returning student percentage also counts and Michigan does quite well on both scores.

Another poster notes: “There are lots of students at Michigan as a whole with the same infantile mentality. While, I am very proud to go UMich, I’m often disappointed when I see other students act with a maturity level I’d expect to see at Michigan State” <== there are a few problems here: 1) behavior is not an eigenvector for grades or accomplishments; 2) your observations are necessarily anecdotal and not statistical (if you graduated from Michigan, you should know better than to conflate the two); 3) seeing point-mass behavior will tell you zero about the change/growth in those students which may lead to them maturing/growing/accomplishing at odds with your very narrow window into their behavior; 4) I’m assuming you are being sincere, because the observation itself and the comparison to Michigan State are juvenile at a level fungible to me with your commentary on the behavior observed.

64

^^^Gulp.

65

Much2learn, I never said their entire student bodies were identical. I said the difference in the quality of the entire student body was negligible, and that 75%-90% of Michigan’s entire student body was indistinguishable. And yes, the same can be said of universities with 27-32 ranges and above (vis-a-vis Michigan of course)…which technically does not include SMU and, thankfully, OSU, both of which have ranges of 27-31! :wink:

blue85, if Michigan’s interquartile ACT range were indeed 30-34, I would agree that altering my statement to say that the entire student body is indistinguishable from that at the other universities I listed on this thread (Brown, Cornell, Penn etc…) would be perfectly justified. But call me old fashioned, I will only trust the CDS. Perhaps Michigan’s ACT range will be 30-34 in the upcoming CDS.

66

Alexandre: fair enough on the CDS…yes, best to stick with figures which are published out to third parties who officially consume such data. That said, I’ve yet to see Michigan game a number, usually what you see is what you get. To that extent, I’m taking the string “2015 entering class” at face value and have made the leap that the CDS will not controvert that string.

BTW: to those who question Alexandre’s presumptive boosterism, note well the above, he is clearly on the side of accuracy.

67

Many students want to act like the Deltas in Animal House, and, like them, they end up better than you thought.

68

Many of the comments in this string are splitting hairs when comparing elite universities. One could argue that the top four schools give you some brand recognition advantage. Outside of the top four, it simply does matter which elite school you attended. As Chief Operating Office of a US company, I’d take a 3.9 GPA kid from UMich over a 3.2 kid from Duke out of college, and vice versa. I respect UMich as much as the second tier Ivy’s (no disrespect intended to the bottom four Ivy’s). If you chose Brown or Cornell over UMich because you think you will have an advantage in life, you are very mistaken in my opinion. Furthermore, once you are 5 years out of school, you will be judged on your work accomplishments for the most part.

Some of the comparisons on compensation are skewed because UMich will educate in-state kids that want to get into teaching and other fields with average incomes. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to compare compensation from graduates of “Public Ivy’s” with traditional Ivy’s. Of course, the public Ivy’s will take a broader range of students.

In summary, UMich has more successful alumni that most top tier school including most Ivy’s (OK Michigan is a bigger school). It has a world class reputation in virtually all academic disciplines.

Pick the elite school that is the best fit for you and doesn’t burden your family financially.

69

After reading through the comments at the end of this thread I feel sick to my stomach and worried I have made a huge mistake. I just turned down Carnegie Mellon (Dietrich-statistics) to go to UMich in the Honors Program (LSA-statistics) and I wasn’t planning on trying to transfer into Ross or to be pre-med or anything. I am OOS so it would have cost about the same to go to Carnegie (UMich is actually slightly more). I don’t plan on partying…is LSA really a joke??? Someone please reassure me I’m not completely doomed… :frowning:

70

NICE8x, you have nothing to worry about. The criticism leveled against LSA on this thread is, for the most part, completely inaccurate and baseless. Like I said, Michigan LSA is among the best liberal arts schools in the nation, certainly on par, if not better than Dietrich. Just look at all the indicators:

DEPARTMENT RANKINGS
Biology: Michigan #19, Carnegie Mellon #42
Chemistry: Michigan #15, Carnegie Mellon #45
Computer Science: Carnegie Mellon #1, Michigan #13
Earth Science: Michigan #8, Carnegie Mellon not ranked
Economics: Michigan #13, Carnegie Mellon #19
English: Michigan #13, Carnegie Mellon #39
History: Michigan #7, Carnegie Mellon #42
Mathematics: Michigan #9, Carnegie Mellon #34
Physics: Michigan #11, Carnegie Mellon #36
Political Science: Michigan #4, Carnegie Mellon not ranked
Psychology: Michigan #4, Carnegie Mellon #21
Sociology: Michigan #4, Carnegie Mellon not ranked
Statistics: Carnegie Mellon #9, Michigan #12

In your major, CMU and Michigan are roughly the same. But in all the other departments save Computer Science, LSA has the clear edge over Dietrich.

ENDOWMENT
Michigan: $10 billion ($240,000/student)
Carnegie Mellon: $1.7 billion ($125,000/student)

And that does not even include Michigan’s $270,000,000/year state funding, which essentially doubles the size of its endowment. Finally, given the fact that Michigan is significantly larger, it benefits from economics of scale to a greater extent than Carnegie Mellon.

MAJOR AWARDS (undergraduate alumni)
Churchill: Michigan 14, Carnegie Mellon 11
Fields Medal: Michigan 1, Carnegie Mellon 0
Fulbright (since 2004): Michigan 389, Carnegie Mellon 44
MacArthur: Michigan 14, Carnegie Mellon 1
Marshall: Michigan 18, Carnegie Mellon 3
Nobel Prize: Michigan 7, Carnegie Mellon 3
Pulitzer: Michigan 15, Carnegie Mellon 0
Rhodes: Michigan 26, Carnegie Mellon 4
Truman: Michigan 25, Carnegie Mellon 5

When it comes to overall reputation, professional and graduate school placement, LSA is at least as good as, if not better than, Dietrich. LSA does not only hold its own/beats Dietrich in this measure, it does so against Berkeley L&S, Cornell CAS, Northwestern Weinberg, Penn CAS etc…

You made the right decision.

71
  1. Alexandre is completely correct - you'll have the best education and prospects. 2. Harbaugh

Go Blue

72

And to add to @Alexandre ‘s point I do not even think CMU’ Dietrich students can major in CS without also being admitted and enrolled in SCS (which is impossible to get into).

73

@NICE8x - in the few years I have been on this website I have noticed that the Michigan forum seems to attract some posters who seem intent on being provocative, particularly in a negative way. Why, I don’t know, and I don’t notice this on other forums.

FWIW, I am an LSA grad who has found that the Michigan name has opened doors in both grad school and in my professional life. You have NOTHING to regret. You will get the best of both worlds at Michigan - great academics with an unbeatable college atmosphere.

I am actually in Ann Arbor right now since my daughter is attending orientation. She chose Michigan LSA over Cornell.

74

You are absolutely correct blprof. We even had one poster here who invented new screen names as his/her old ones were banned. The negative comments typically come from CC members affiliated (or in love) with other peer institutions who find it insulting that their school of choice is not held in higher esteem by the Michigan faithful.

75

@blue85 “you have Michigan at 29-33, but this Michigan link has the composite ACT at 30-34: http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/student-profile That data is shown for ENTERING rather than for ADMITTED students,”

The ranges that most schools post on their admissions websites are the range that the admissions office admitted. They are not trying to fool people, it is just the way admissions thinks of it. I am pretty sure that 30-34 is the 50th percentile of the entering class that they admitted. The enrolled numbers are almost always slightly lower. For example, if you look at Penn, the same thing happens. The admissions website shows 32-35 as the middle 50 for the 2019 Class. That is the middle 50 percent they admitted. The CDS then shows 31-34. Both sides of the range drop by one. If you look up more schools, you will find the same thing pretty consistently. I think that Michigan admissions just did not word it in the best way on the website.

76

Your last sentence is pertinent: the school’s wording may not have been the best available or the most reflective of reality. The rest of your post is off-point: I highlighted “ENTERING” for a reason…"ENTERING "is CLEARLY different than “ADMITTED”. I never suggested that the admissions office is trying to fool anyone…you have more or less inverted the intent of my post. My point was that kids who were admitted might differ, and probably do differ, from those who will actually matriculate.

Here were/are my points: 1) a range was posted by an entity other than the university; 2) I believe, based on a university link (which I provided), that that range is incorrect; 3) all universities track the admitted range and some publish that range, knowing that it embeds the school’s desired skew, but knowing that the entering class will have somewhat lower metrics; I don’t think and don’t suggest that Michigan will or does play that game; 4) on the strength of that logic, my assumption is that “ENTERING” means kids who have paid deposits, not kids who, in some hypothetical universe based on wishful thinking, will attend. If I am correct, “ENTERING” means reflective of the ENTERING class…in other words, that “ENTERING”=“ENROLLED”, as you style it (or more properly/correctly…matriculated). If I am wrong, as I admit might be possible, then the CDS, as promoted by Alexandre, is the correct document to respect.

Now if you want to argue that, linguistically, “ENTERING”=“ADMITTED”, we will have to agree to disagree. My understanding is that ENTERING is a subset of ADMITTED.

77

Imagine my shock when someone claimed that the “M” in HYPSM stood for some east coast school. My Midwestern upbringing did not allow me to correct him in public. Thankfully, we on this board know better. :wink:

BTW, I left Harvard Business School voluntarily. Meh. Didn’t see what all the shouting was about. It wasn’t a good fit for me.

78

@Alexandre

“NICE8x, you have nothing to worry about. The criticism leveled against LSA on this thread is, for the most part, completely inaccurate and baseless.”

Are you referring to people referring to LSA as “LS and Play?” People actually do say “LS and Play.” I am not saying you will hear it every moment you spend on campus, but you will probably hear it at least once in a while. Furthermore, I am not saying that this means that all LSA classes are jokes or that these students are even correct. Again, I am just stating that “LS and Play” is actually a nickname people have given LSA.

Like “LS and Play,” people refer to Industrial and Operations Engineering (IOE) as “I-O-Easy,” “In and Out Easy,” and “Instead of Engineering.” Maybe I came up with it, but “It’s Only Easy” could be another name. Regardless of the nicknames, IOE graduates turn out just fine when it comes to jobs :slight_smile:

@NICE8x

Keep in mind that these are just nicknames that students came up with. They do not matter. Who cares if another student, who is probably not even majoring in the same field as you, makes fun of your major/school/college?

79

777Blue77, students play everywhere. Engineers everywhere belittle liberal arts majors, and Michigan is no exception. I am fairly certain that NICE8x’ concerns weren’t about that, but rather about the statements by some posters that LSA is somehow second rate.

80

Michigan is an excellent state university. Arguably the best in the country. It should be an easy decision for in state students.