Turning the Tide- Rethinking College Admissions- a new report endorsed by many top Universities

I heard the Dean of Admissions from an Ivy League school speak last week. A member of the audience asked him about his views on the Turning the Tide report, and essentially his response was, plus ca change…

He said he’s been in admissions for almost 40 years, and every couple of years, someone comes out with a well-intentioned proposal for how to make the admissions system better, everyone gets all excited, admissions professionals talk about it at their next conference or two, and ultimately not much actually happens.

That was pretty much my reaction when I read it, but I was glad to hear that from someone who actually knows what he’s talking about!

I remember two years ago, when DS1 was an “upper” @ Andover, I attended a college admissions event. The college counselor I met with said “I just wish they would adopt the Oxford/Cambridge, let it be based on test scores so everyone would just know where they stood”.

And I wish that these selective colleges would just do/spend what they have to increase their seats/beds so they don’t continue to use the lame excuse, “so many qualified applicants, so few spots.”

Or maybe we should just impose a reproduction limit so eventually even Harvard goes begging for domestic students…

I went to a couple of these “selective” schools. You know what’s so “selective” about them? They simply don’t have enough seats for everyone qualified to go there. Let’s solve the problem, people.

@ChoatieMom I made the same point about a few prep schools that have the financial power to increase their enrollment resonably, and got an earful that they can’t because of the “chapel space”. And, isn’t Choate considering decreasing its size for whatever agenda they have set? On the other hand, I do understand that private colleges and prep schools have small classes as their “selling point” so it may be too much to ask them to be as big as state/public schools, but surely there’s a balance out there for the sake of expanded access.

Despite their nonprofit status, these colleges and prep schools are businesses and their business models depend on their exclusivity.

So true. If the could and do expand the student body by ten folds, then many students wouldn’t want it any longer, or wouldn’t want to pay for it.

I absolutely agree. Adolescence is meant to be a time in which you begin to discover who you are-- college should be the place where you hone what you’ve sought as a teenager. My high school record might not have been stunning or racked with leadership roles and ECs-- but I was very focused on reading, writing, art, and treating people well. My parents didn’t make me do anything, and I wasn’t focused on college at all. That is how I turned out, and I would say I am very good at what I have been focusing on.

Those who know how competitive things have gotten spend their lives studying for the subjects they don’t truly care about. In this they lose themselves. I believe admissions should be rethought as a series of interviews, public schooling overhauling the Prussian-Industrial Model in which they operate, instead creating an environment focused on student’s ideas and self-worth. If we address what they are interested in, we can frame lessons and classes around that. Hampshire College’s system would be a very good method beyond middle school. In elementary school and middle school, we teach students basic skills, then move onto exactly how to think. We need to be building critical thinkers. It is possible, but we need to reorganize federal budgeting and cut down the hours in which students are in school.

Above all, we need to be teaching students how to care for each other. Bullying is still a huge problem, and they try to solve it by saying ‘Report it when you see it’-- as anonymous as they make it, the ‘bully’ will know when the situation is relayed back to them, even without any sources named whatsoever. This will probably cause gossip or further backlash as they will get severely reprimanded. We must be addressing the source. Even when a student reports, damage has been done. Are we going to let damage continue?

We have placed WAY too much emphasis on success, which makes the students competitive. If not, the emphasis is still placed on success instead of reinforcing the common good. Humans are naturally curious and will fall into their designated areas of life with the correct environment to nurture individuality. We don’t need students to be good at everything, we need them to be great at some things. Someone will be a gifted doctor, someone will be a gifted artist, another will be a gifted biologist, etc. Positions will be filled due to sheer amount of students we have. Everyone is great at something. Philip Glass said himself he was not a good student in college studying math and philosophy, yet he’s one of the most influential composers we have living today. Much of our gifted population excels in one subject but do horribly in the rest; many aren’t very good test takers, and most are misunderstood and therefore alienated by their peers, causing depression due to emotional over-excitability, resulting usually in average grades + no rigor. Some of our most talented and promising youth are lost in the institutions which have the resources to graduate the next Rothko, or Joyce. The all-rounder approach does not do these students justice at all.

We must be helping students find themselves, not forcing them into a mold which most students don’t fit and don’t have to fit to be excellent citizens and intellectuals. We must be focusing on a magnitude of talent and citizenry (ECs can signify this, or it can just be a case that the student had strategy), or potential in which university will help them grow into excellence.

I would just like to see some method for comparing students that doesn’t rely on qualifications that can be bought. Extracurricular involvement? How many well-connected moms and dads are helping the kid with his “charity?” Test Scores? How much money went into tutoring? I don’t know what the answer is, because it seems like whatever the criteria end up being, there is a segment of the population that can pay for it to be better for their kids.

Actually, I would say we need to restructure education based on Piaget’s stages of cognition. If the student is neurologically capable of advanced work, we shouldn’t be drawing a parallel of challenging courses vs non-challenging (AP/IB vs reg); all students can do abstract work having reached formal cognition. In fact, it’s that the students aren’t being challenged which can cause stagnation, along with motivation and social issues which schools do not have the logistics to address. We must believe that our students are good enough, and we need to get them to believe they are as well.

Please name one – just one – criteria that fits with your idea?

Theoretically, a well-designed IQ test should do the trick.

But, we all know that it takes a lot more than raw intelligence.

^^perhaps true, but then you are only ‘guaranteed’ to get brains…but that doesn’t always translate into work ethic. Plenty of brilliant folks get C’s in high school…

btw: what’s to stop the wealthy from shopping for psychologists to administer and re-adminster and…IQ tests?

Are we expecting too much from schools, or do colleges take themselves “too seriously”? Formal education by definition is to normalize and socialize individuals so individuals conform and become contributing members within the structure of society. Have prodigies and true out-of-box thinkers ever been products of schools? Even elite schools should try to do what they do best, which is to find the right subset of the mass and provide the necessary training so they are equipped to make contribution larger or small to the society (and a good living) in a field of their interest and better at. Parents know their kids better, so who is to tell what they should do in parenting, but for the majority, it’s not whether to “make them do something” when they are kids but “how to make them do something”. Isn’t it easier and more common in this society for parents to NOT make their kids do enough instead of otherwise? And isn’t that a major reason why there are so many underachievers sitting around and playing games all day? I’m for the changes, but I hope elite colleges don’t get carried away by some self imposed lofty mission.

Company IQ tests are administered by their staff, on the premises.

I refer you to the experience of New York City Gifted & Talented and private school admissions (Kindergarten edition.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/nyregion/new-york-city-schools-struggle-to-separate-the-gifted-from-the-just-well-prepared.html?_r=0

An IQ test would only do the trick if insiders couldn’t profit from selling access to test items to test prep companies.

I posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant to the discussion here too. The writer, Adam Grant, is a Wharton professor of management and psychology…

http://nyti.ms/ZelyMX

I disagree with pretty much everything written in that article, and most of the posts here.

No system of colleges and admissions is going to be perfect, and our current system is just fine.

There’s almost 4,000 colleges in the US. At least 3,800 of those don’t require any AP tests, and are almost completely non-selective. It’s only 50 or so that are highly selective, and 100 or so that are sort of selective. We are talking about .025% of US colleges here.

Nobody needs to go to those 50-100 schools to be happy or successful in life. To think that is ridiculous. If a student is suffering “sleep deprivation, anxiety and depression” trying to get into a school he or she isn’t cut out for, that’s an issue with the student (and parents), not the schools.

The article (and many/most of the posts here) really stems from the “everyone deserves a trophy” mentality that pervades our society these days, taken to an extreme. “Everyone should be able to go to Harvard.” or “Everyone should be able to go to a Top X college.”

Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. There’s always going to be rankings, achievement, accomplishments or varying levels. Not everyone is equal, not everyone gets a trophy.

Like most things, as far as the kids are concerned, the primary thing is this: Parents. If kids are suffering from “sleep deprivation, anxiety and depression” because of school, or because they think they need to go to Harvard to be worth anything or be a success, I put the blame for that kind of depraved thinking on the parents. These are not kids who have been raised with the right values or perspectives.

No college requires AP tests as far as I know. Do you mean SAT? ACT?

I meant AP courses.

It’s in response to the original post (“It asks colleges to send a clear message that admissions officers won’t be impressed by more than a few Advanced Placement courses. Poorer high schools aren’t as likely to offer A.P. courses, and a heavy load of them is often cited as a culprit in sleep deprivation, anxiety and depression among students at richer schools.”) and posts #2 and #3.

You’ll be perfectly eligible to get into 99% of US colleges without taking a single AP course, thus avoiding the “sleep deprivation, anxiety and depression” that these courses apparently cause students.

@menloparkmom, I just have to point out that while the tombstone may not have the name of your school, your casket certainly can! http://www.caringcaskets.com/web-page.html