Funny how people use their highest rankings or use rankings at all. Unless you totally agree with the methodology and actually think the data compilation is 100%, it’s meaningless. Look at rankings to give you an idea of some data points, ok I get it. But using rankings in some publication to prove one school surpasses another is silly at best. Sad, at worst. Many schools are great in particular fields or are outstanding at some particular thing. There is no #1.
Your son’s decision process seems pretty reasonable, although do note: he did make use of a ranking system. Citation rankings are likely a pretty good measure of research power in an academic department, no? I wonder to what extent they are correlated with the US News system but it probably varies by field.
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OK - forget the school names - just say school, A, B, C, and D that are similar.
Using his personal methodology, did the consideration set yield the regular cast of characters - that’s what I’m asking.
My guess is probably so - but was asking.
only sort of. For example, UCSF is one of the top rated programs in Bio, but because it only takes grad students (no undergrads) its not even on any of the usual lists. Also places like UCSD because of proximity to Scripps etc are much higher rated in Bio. Places like Hopkins rank higher in Bio than their general rankings (good though that might be) probably because of a positive halo effect from their medical program (deserved, mind you). The Univ of Washington may not show up on traditional top 10 lists but is world class in Bio/Cancer research. An aspiring grad student really needs to look at the strength of the specific department in their preferred sub sub specialty. I say “sub sub” deliberately- for my kid, even “molecular” biology was too broad a brush. And, you have to keep in mind- what happens if my interests change- so you need a Dept that is deep and wide.
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My experience- which I tried to pass along to my son- is that when picking between jobs there is the rational part and then the “emotional” part, and you need to trust your gut. So the rankings- or some version thereof- help with the rational part, but ultimately where you want to live for 5+ yrs (for a PhD) is pretty key. Generally the advice he got- from UChicago faculty- and other faculty friends of the family- it all depends on your adviser and where you want to live. Not a peep about rankings.
Tiglathpileser mentioned 4 criteria that his son used – citation ranking, NIH funding, number of professors in his subset of molecular biology, and quality of life in selected location. I’d expect that there are huge differences in these metrics for the 4 colleges that you listed. For example, I’d expect Rice to be far behind the others listed in both biology citations and NIH funding. Quality of life in location of college is largely a matter of personal preference. Personally, I am not a big fan of any of the locations listed, so all would rank poorly for me in this metric. However, if I had to choose among just these 4, my first choice would probably be Durham (Duke). I’m sure many others would have very different personal preferences.
International/global reputation was not a criteria Tiglathpileser mentioned in selecting colleges. If we are naming possible criteria for which the colleges rank differently, there are many other examples, For example, when I was a student, I was a prospective electrical engineering major. Chicago does not offer an electrical engineering major, so it would rank much below the others in this critical metric for my college selection. Similarly, I’d expect Chicago would not do well in electrical engineering rankings lists or likely engineering ranking lists in general. Example numbers from USNWR engineering rankings are below:
Duke – #24 – 3.7/5
Rioe – #27 – 3.7/5
Vanderbilt – #43 – 3.1/5
Chicago – Not among ranked top 200+
Slightly tangential- but there are specific groups that work on common issues that maybe in any university. They hang out at conferences, read each others papers etc. For example, at one of my son’s interviews he met with a prof who started discussing a paper and my son pipes up “we were assigned that paper in our Advanced Bio class’”- immediate sweetness and light resulted. One summer he got an NIH internship- and his UChicago mentor said “say Hello to Dr XYZ and mention how I really liked their paper on ABC”. The trick is to become part of these extended groups and the actual home location is just one factor.
Probably not—in terms of global universities, Rice and Vandy are nowhere to be found. They are still rising regional unis…
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regards undergrad rankings, I have to throw this one in
If you have a degree from one. of these universities, you get an immediate 2 year visa to work in the UK…
For grad schools, it’s all about the professor/PI he’d be working with. About the professor’s reputation (both academic and non-academic), not the school’s or even the department’s reputation. About his/her funding, not the school’s or the department’s funding.
That’s the essence of the advice we got that helped him. Its hard to know a priori about a given profs total reputation, so one proxy was the # working his field. Ultimately he had a choice between a mega urban area, a "normal " urban area and a college town. For him that was an important criterion.
Scripps and UCSF, for example, are tied for 9th in U.S. News for biological sciences on the graduate level. This shows a confluence between your evaluation and that expressed in a prominent ranking, and therefore seems to support the ranking itself.
These days many highly competitive graduate programs ask applicants to identify the professors/PIs whom they would like to work with when they apply.
It warms the cockles of my heart to see an old-tyme rip-roarin’ rompin’ stompin’ UChicago rankings debate erupt on the board. That hasn’t happened for a long time.
My contribution would be this: the College has always attracted two types - those who choose it because of its culture and those who chose it despite its culture. I doubt the ascension in the rankings has changed that dynamic very much. No doubt it has, however, created a more objectively talented pool of applicants.
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Thanks for pointing this one out. I notice that quite a few of the “top” schools on the list have engineering programs so probably have more “projects-based” curricula. Not sure why Amherst would be ranked above UChicago (or Williams, for that matter), but the inconsistency with the Shanghai rankings is easily explained by the notably smaller size of the institution and lack of a world-wide research presence (usually accompanied by scores of grad students in a large variety of academic disciplines). My two at UChicago chose/have chosen the more intensive version of their respective majors precisely in order to produce that original academic work; it appears to be an amazing (and quite challenging) experience. While this option seems to exist in most if not all the majors, I have no idea how many students are attempting it, especially now with the Cum Laude system in place that rewards on GPA (honors in major requires an original thesis). Econ is a very popular major, for instance, but I truly wonder how many students are attempting to graduate with honors in Econ when they can graduate Cum or higher w/o doing the extra work. Contrast to my own experience at my LAC where a senior thesis in Economics was actually required in order to graduate!!
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Most faculty I know think that ranking systems are complete BS. edit to add: probably with the exception of the citations one. I know people who have quoted those.
Yes, ISI ranks scientists/etc by annual citation frequency, and the conclusions are simply “here are the most highly-cited researchers”. Objective, fact-based, so much less controversial than the prior discussion…
As typical for USNWR, the ranking is entirely based on a survey given to college admins, so I’d expect the ranking would primarily relate to a combination of basic things that are well known and general USNWR ranking in other areas. An example of the former is the Amherst senior thesis. ~Half of Amherst kids do a senior thesis, which can involve working with or doing research with faculty. However, a good portion of students also do collaborative summer research with faculty via SURF and/or receive funding from Amherst to conduct research.
As best I can tell , Williams has a much lower portion of students pursuing a senior thesis. While not necessarily as well known among admins filling out the survey, Williams also has its share of opportunities for research. For example, it’s my understanding that summer research via SMALL is more common than senior thesis among math majors, which involves math research with guidance by faculty. Many participants publish their group’s research in academic journals.
That’s funny, I think the opposite. I rank UChicago top tier because there is no engineering school. Lol. Actually, Columbia does have an engineering program. My husband gradated with a EE degree from Columbia Engineering.
Here is another list, lol:
This list seems to have some practicality to it at least.
And yes, I guess I’m another ‘UChicago’ person since my son is graduating from there in 2 days.
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