U Chicago once again globally ranked above peer schools

Research and graduate program is important for PhD students, when sorted by planned field of study. It’s far less important for typical undergraduate students. Typical undergrads prioritize a lot of criteria besides research and graduate program, which is not captured by research + graduate rankings.

Research + graduate rankings are also not inherently any less arbitrary or more meaningful than USNWR. They are still choosing arbitrary and widely varying weightings to rank “best”, with no verification about whether their formula for “best college” is correct or not.

For example, the largest component of the Shanghai weighting is historical Nobel prize winners with 33% of weighting in some way involving historical Nobel prize winners. Chicago does very well in this metric, particularly in economics. In contrast many other rankings do not consider Nobel prizes at all, in many cases do not consider faculty accolades at all besides research citations. Some control for size. Some do not. This can create a very different order of "best’ and no validation of whose list is correct/incorrect.

One of the most direct metrics of social mobility is to look at the portion of students who increase significantly in SES. For example, consider the following 2 colleges. College 1 has the better graduation rate and the larger portion high income graduate, but it doesn’t have good social mobility. Instead it admits high income kids and graduates high income kids. In contrast college 2 has a lot of social mobility. It admits a large portion of low income kids, and a large portion of kids increase to higher SES level after college. So a large portion of kids increase in social mobility after college.

College 1: Bad Social Mobility
Input = 5% low income, 10% middle income, 85% high income
Output = 5% do not graduate,20% middle income, 75% high income

College 2: Good Social Mobility
Input = 50% low income, 30% middle income, 20% high income
Output = 10% do not graduate, 30% middle income, 60% high income

This is what the Chetty study I linked to earlier tried to measure. It found the following colleges had the largest portion of students who moved up at least 2 income quintiles after college. HYP didn’t fair as well. Chetty put the #1 USNWR ranked Princeton in the bottom 2% of colleges in social mobility.

Best Overall Mobility Index: Chetty Study
1 . Vauhn College – 57% of students increased 2 income quintiles
2. CUNY – 51% of students increased 2 income quintiles
3. Baruch – 49% of students increased 2 income quintiles
4. Texas A&M – 48% of students increased 2 income quintiles
5. Cal State LA – 47% of students increased 2 income quintiles

1991/2139. Harvard – 11% of students increased 2 income quintiles
2040/2139. Yale – 10% of students increased 2 income quintiles
2096/2139 Princeton – 9% of students increased 2 income quintiles

The Chetty study above uses tax reported income of parents, which USNWR may have trouble getting access to. USNWR could ask some related questions in surveys and default to Chetty reported + penalty for colleges that don’t provide info. However, this is complicated and there are likely to be further issues. A far more simple metric that is trivial to calculate and uses existing numbers that USNWR already has in their database is simply (% Pell x Pell Grad Rate). Some colleges that do well in this metric in 2019-20 IPEDS are.

  • Baruch – 43%
  • Cal State LA – 40%
  • CUNY – 39%
  • Texas A&M – 37%

Some colleges that do poorly in this metric, as listed in 2019-20 IPEDS are:

  • Duke – 11%
  • Caltech – 11%
  • Chicago – 12%

The above is better than existing, but still has issues. Some colleges try to increases Pell %, but still admit the bulk of class from top 5% income. Just looking at Pell % doesn’t distinguish between such colleges and other that admit bulk of class from middle income. Ideally, you’d want to consider portion of the class that is truly low income (not same as Pell), middle income, and high income… not just portion Pell. You could get some rough estimates based on things like portion that did not apply/qualify for FA as listed in CDS and sticker price without FA. USNWR has their own CDS like survey and could ask other questions, without getting too specific about income of FA applicants.

Graduation rate is also a severely flawed metric that primarily relates to being selective enough to admit kids who are likely to graduate and having good enough FA so that they don’t need to leave for financial reasons. Better would be to apply a correction for colleges that admit Pell kids that have a lower/higher risk of not graduating. For example, if SAT score and demographic distribution suggests that admitted Pell kids with those stats typically have a 40% chance of graduating, but 80% graduate, that’s impressive. However, if Pell kids with similar SAT score and demographics have a 90% chance of graduating and 90% of them graduate, that’s not as impressive.

The above calculation adjustments is kind of like treating a bullet wound with a band-aid. It’s better than nothing, but there are far more severe problems with the whole idea of try to rank “best colleges” by a formula. Even if USNWR were to change the “social mobility” metric to Chetty’s calculation, the USNWR list of best ranked colleges is still going to be applying arbitrary selected weightings and arbitrary selected metrics to create an unmeaningful formula for “best college”, with no validation whether the formula is correct/incorrect. Best of all would be to abandon this idea of pretending the outcome of arbitrary scientific looking formula for “best college” is meaningful and instead list stats/info about colleges and provide a good way for students to search through those stats to find good match colleges.

With the caveat that rankings should not be a major guiding factor in college selection…

aren’t rankings by major more useful than overall “best colleges” rankings?

Nietzsche, Mencken…One more and I hit “bingo” on my U Chicago bingo card. :laughing:

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It might depend on the major and the person’s career plans. Subject rankings would probably have more direct impact if the student is shooting for graduate work and/or a career in that field. Our two at UChicago majored/are majoring in history and philosophy with career outcomes (k-12 education, law) not necessarily connected directly to those fields; for them, UChicago’s strong general curriculum including analytical writing was as important as what goes on in those specific majors.

Ok, I can see that.

Rankings by major are a useful guide if an applicant’s major lines up with their intended career (examples: aeronautical engineering, computer science, etc). But maybe not in other cases.

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The Chetty study adds the needed (IMO) component of “accessibility” to the social mobility calculation, so thank you Data and MTMind for filling in that detail. However, as it turns out, HYPMS etc. actually don’t score particularly high on the USNWR social mobility ranking either:

Social Mobility Ranking (USNWR National Universities)
H 211
Y 265
P 199
M 179
S 249
And . . . UChicago 327

So it appears that USNWR’s numbers are consistent with the Chetty conclusion that the Ivy+ group does pretty poorly in social mobility. For comparison, the top six on the USNews list are Riverside, Irvine, Rutgers, Merced, Kaiser and FIU. While some of these have overall rankings that are at least respectable, none rivals the Ivy+ group. Again, pretty consistent with Chetty’s conclusions.

Can we actually conclude that the fix is in when we look at Social Mobility on USNWR? It doesn’t appear so, IMO.

This observation provides support for looking at more than one ranking system. Again, the same institutions end up at the top of many (if not most) ranking lists and that, in aggregate, suggests they are “best.” That’s the nice thing about ranking systems - they contain a lot of information that, taken together, might provide some useful insight.

The undergraduate program is a part of the same institution as the graduate and research programs. it’s all one university, and research prowess trickles down to things like insightful teaching (especially teaching the current research) and related opportunities made available at the undergraduate level. That’s one reason why there’s a strong correlation between top research reputation and things like undergraduate selectivity and impressive CV’s of each incoming class. The “best” students like going to the “best” universities.

“That’s all folks”

-Porky Pig

On another thread, a CC member quoted this line from the movie Good WIll Hunting:

But I think it applies more here with a slight modification and accounting for inflation:

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I have some very bright nephews who made the same decision when it came time to apply to college. They were worried about too much studying and not enough “fun.” UChicago kids have “fun” but perhaps in ways that are distinct from the more typical college crowd. For instance, a visiting prof. and guest speaker at Agnes Callard’s recent “Night Owls” session remarked on the extraordinary turnout and the retention of the audience’s genuine interest in the topic. He had given the same talk at several peer schools with nowhere near the numbers (or, if there were, they didn’t last past the cookie break).

After experiencing 7 years of student education at the College by now, including conversations with numerous parents at my D’s graduation last year, I actually believe that there is no disconnect. The vast majority of parents who are affiliated with the school aren’t on CC or reddit or similar forums and, as we’ve seen here at least, most posters who do make comments have no genuine affiliation with the school.

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The whole concept is silly. Someone may go to Murray State, be class president, tied in with a prof or the chancellor and for them, it might be better…their experience than a school where everyone is outstanding. . Every kid is different and what makes a school better differs between each student because each student defines success in their own way.

Quite frankly I don’t see the need for the snark when I was trying to make an on-topic point.

In the case if my D, the uncommon essay spoke to her. Out of the dozen plus essays she did, the one that she wrote fastest was the uncommon essay, and it was probably her best. That’s what told her that UChicago was likely a good fit. Pretention had nothing to do with it.

I have said that I am a big fan of UChicago for the right student, and a big mistake for the wrong student. I believe that the uncommon essay helps find the right student. On the other hand, I don’t think that adding ED and ED2 help finding the right student. I also have some issues with the large number of students that it gets from elite boarding schools. So overall, I am a fan, but not a blind one.

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The thread continues to occupy a disproportionate amount of moderator time, and truth be told, no new info is being imparted. Closing.

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