I agree, @AlbionGirl. My kids have never attended a school that was noteworthy by rankings, but that did not impact their educations and UG opportunities negatively. Their post-UG options were equally not impacted. My oldest ds attended a U ranked way below UA and it has not negatively impacted his career as an engineer. Industry knows the outcomes of the school’s engineering program and recruits its graduates. Industry’s opinion is what matters, not USNWR.
My ds who just graduated from UA had a wonderful UG experience. His professors were supportive. He had wonderful research mentoring.
If in classroom and on-campus educational and mentoring experiences were assessed, my kids would affirm their UG institutions.
My current UG is also attending a school not ranked in the top 100. She is loving her UG experience. She has great classes, great professors, and a fabulous peer group of all hardworking, career-goal oriented, academically strong students. What she does post-UG will be directly related to her career goals and personal ambitions, not based on her UG ranking.
Fwiw, I know kids who went to top institutions who were deflated and derailed from their original post-UG goals by their UG experiences. Those outcomes don’t get much traction in discussions on CC, but knowing how strong they were academically, I have wondered if they had gone to different schools would they have pursued grad school or different careers.
Interestingly, when I went to Ohio State in the 1980s, they also had open admissions. At the time I went there, they played all sorts of games trying to maximize their income by keeping students in school for as long as possible and accepting very little transfer credit. For example, I had about 20 credit hours left in my major to graduate and they decided to offer those courses on the same days at overlapping times, thereby preventing people from graduating on time. Most states now tie funding to graduation rates- so I don’t think that happens anymore. Also, after I graduated state laws were passed that required OSU to accept more transfer credit. Also of note was that my college application for admissions was similar to what a person would fill out for a fast food job. I think it was 3 pages long and just asked you to list your GPA and ACT/ SAT scores and requested information on any placement tests you wanted to take to get placement credit for courses.
It seems likely that UA’s ranking will go up eventually. We toured their honors programs since my D was NMF. We were pretty impressed with their pre-med program.
"I would be very proud if I had a degree from Alabama, Nebraska or UT-Dallas. (I don’t know enough about the other three universities listed by OP in the opening post in this thread.)
Some universities will never be highly ranked simply because they take their mission to educate those who deserve a chance. Probably Arizona State & University of Arizona exemplify this best. No standardized tests involved. Guaranteed admission if you meet minimum requirements. Isn’t this to be admired ? Isn’t this the true purpose & calling of a state supported university ?"
gottolaugh wrote: “I think the formula that US News is using for 2019 rankings is much better than in year’s past. It is interesting to see how some schools moved up and some schools moved down. Alabama is not very selective when it comes to admissions. Many of these kids might not survive the rigor of the school and either end up dropping out and or not graduating at all. The rankings are now accounting for this. So even though admissions and test scores are not being used to calculate their rankings, end results are.”
Selectivity is subjective. UA has been rejecting almost half of all applicants for about a decade now. So it is not really fair to say it isn’t selective. But UA IS under pressure to NOT be more selective. If it was significantly more selective, two things would LIKELY result which would attract criticism: a lower percentage of African American students and an even lower percentage of in-state students. Other state flagships simply don’t face the same pressures to admit lower tier students, so relative to the pressure it is under, I think UA is more selective than you appreciate.
From my last look at the criteria for USNWR, UA is slipping due to several factors: a relatively low 6 year graduation rate, a relatively high student/faculty ratio (even though its top students are largely in small Honors Program classes), and lower than expected peer reputation score which should rise as UA improves its research profile. Each of these take time to change, no matter how many top students UA admits, at least as long as it is pressured to admit lower tier students.
Employers rarely know what a college’s ranking is unless it’s their own alma mater or HYPS. Most employers simply hear a school’s name, and if it’s familiar, they think, “ok, good school.”
Frankly, I think having 18% Pell grant recipients on campus is pretty good. The state doesn’t just have a couple of strong universities. The state of Alabama handles its state colleges like a few other states, heavily sprinkling them across the state so that access to higher education is convenient.
There’s nothing WRONG with THAT strategy of providing access.
It’s really irresponsible to create tax-payer funded grants to simply provide housing/meals so that students can skip past their local very good school to go across the state. That’s a luxury that taxpayers really can’t afford to fund.
It’s silly to think that the ONLY way to provide access is to provide grants so that they can dorm at a college 100 miles away.
The state has a lowish population for its size. Roughly about 6 million, yet has 5 very strong public universities (Bama, Auburn, UAB, UAH, USA and 6 other very good/good public universities. In fact, the state has a large number of public universities (12) for its population size. That is providing access to higher education.
USNews is narrow-minded to think that the only way to provide access is need-based aid for the sleep away experience.
@mom2collegekids "Employers rarely know what a college’s ranking is unless it’s their own alma mater or HYPS. Most employers simply hear a school’s name, and if it’s familiar, they think, “ok, good school.”
Specific Ranking might not be of knowledge, but Recruiters do know the difference between say a Michigan graduate vs in this case an Alabama graduate when it comes to school selectivity *not saying the education is better at one vs the other) Alabama is not very selective and Michigan is. By no means I am bashing Alabama here, but they do know which school is the more selective school. Of course if does not mean that an Alabama graduate or any other school will not be able to get a job. But certain schools DO HAVE a reputation that follows and it might make a difference or open doors.
Whether we like it or not, the rankings are there and pretty much everyone looks at them. Many decisions are based on these rankings To some people the choice of going to Alabama vs Michigan or another top ranked University might be very clear. However, another consideration should be the cost of attendance. Is Alabama worth the full cost of attendance as am OOS ? Nope. Is Michigan (close to $50K tuition alone) Nope! To some it might be. What if Alabama was to offer a great Merit scholarship such free tuition or wave the OOS tuition difference? Absolutely! By the way I have no skin in neither school…
Alabama is known to give a lot of money to students with decent stats. If the well dries, I think kids will choose to go somewhere else. Unfortunately. Alabama and some of the schools are not benefiting from these rankings the same way some others are Too soon to tell whether this will make a difference in the coming years.
@got2laugh Our family hasn’t witnessed a distinction. Our chemE ds didn’t graduate from a Bama, but a far lesser known school, and has worked right alongside UMich graduates. No difference in careers or salary based on their schools. Now everything is based on job performance. Our ds who just graduated from Bama is in grad school right alongside grads from tippy top UG programs. Bama didn’t prevent him from being accepted.
What should not be underestimated is the importance of an individual’s performance and experiences on career trajectory. My kids didn’t just go to class. They shaped their UG experiences by seeking out opportunities.
gottolaugh: What is your definition of selectivity? You keep saying UA is “not very selective.” If a school rejects about half of its applicants, that is fairly selective. Could it be more selective? I think so, but you and others are not appreciating the intense criticism and pressure UA would receive if it became even more selective. Would YOU be ok with increased selectivity at UA even if it meant fewer African American and fewer disadvantaged in state students of all races?
By the way got2laugh, do you realize that 25% or more of UA freshman have an ACT of 33 or higher? That upper 25th percentile is very close to UM’s upper 25th percentile of 33. I wish people would stop using the word “selective” and instead use the word, “exclusive.” But I think that word comes off of as more negative, and is thus not used by elites of this nation. But exclusivity is the goal, for UA is indeed selective in recruiting top students. Unlike UM, however, it is not very exclusive. You tell me which is better in this “social justice” centric PC world.
@Atlanta68 Alabama acceptance rate is about 53 percent “Average ACT: 27. The average ACT score at University of Alabama is 27. This score makes University of Alabama Moderately Competitive for ACT scores. The 25th percentile ACT score is 22, and the 75th percentile ACT score is 31.”
Michigan acceptance rate is about 26 percent. “The average ACT score composite at University of Michigan is a 31. The 25th percentile ACT score is 29, and the 75th percentile ACT score is 33.”
Plenty of kids with ACT scores in the low 20;s get admitted into Alabama. I would say that based on those scores, it is not a very selective school. This is the reason Alabama ranks where it ranks in pretty much every ranking publication. If you ask anyone from say a school such as Blessed Trinity or Milton or any of the north Atlanta schools, pretty much everyone gets in. On the basis of "social justice"because the admit just about all kinds of different schools , Alabama wins and so do many of the schools ranked like Alabama.
You pointed out that 25 percent of the freshmen class have ACT scores of 33 plus I would say that these are smart kids for taking the money and getting a great education for close to free vs say whatever options they had which maybe even included schools such as Michigan or the like. I am sure some these kids knew full well that going to Alabama was not as prestigious as maybe Michigan… oh but the money. I would have taken it too because to me an education from Michigan is NOT worth $200K more than an education from Alabama.It is what you make out of it the opportunities that are taken. Having said that, this does not mean that Michigan is not the more prestigious and selective school. It is!
Alabama ranks 61 in Public Universities and Michigan is 4… That should settle that…Back to Alabama For many schools it takes years and years to improve their rankings and overall perception. UGA and UF are moving in the other direction. Many schools from years past have been able to do this. Ohio State comes to mind. I think that some of these schools have gotten harder to get in. Lower ACT scores will not cut it Does the University of Alabama have any well known or top ranked programs?
Alabama’s poor 4 year graduation rate (44%) is hurting it’s rank and is kind of a red flag. Currently, students have less than a coin flop chance at graduating in 4 years… Think about that.
Low graduation rates are mostly related to the strength of students coming in. University of Alabama is not that selective, and the state of Alabama does not have very good K-12 education. Six year graduation rates are only 69% – and only 56% for Pell grant students. But the full tuition scholarship students probably have significantly higher graduation rates than the overall.
@WildestDream. Bama’s entering freshman classes are over 6,000 students from a wide range of academic and financial backgrounds. Graduating in 4 yrs is a reflection on academic preparedness, financial stability, and whether or not students pursue opportunities such as academic yr co-ops.
The students not graduating in 4 yrs are not random “coin toss” outcomes. Top students not co-oping and financially stable are not going to be the profile of students not graduating in 4 yrs.
Alabama’s low rank is well deserved based on the numbers posted above. Low graduation rates and strength of students. Yes, they have a top tier student body or the 25 percent above 33 of the ACTs, but it is really the other 75 percent that is holding it back. It is fair to say that if Alabama did not offer those larger merit scholarships in order to attract the some of its top students, the rankings would be even be lower. This is not to say that Alabama or similar ranked schools such as MIssouri , or some of the others mentioned above are bad schools. Hard to imagine that a similar sized school such as UGA or Florida offers a better education. But it does come down to selectivity and with that comes all the other results that would bring those higher rankings.
The question remains if rankings matter in long term career outcomes. People argue both ways. I know for our family that we have not seen any negative impact due to college ranking. Others insist otherwise. CC leans in the ranking matters direction. People choosing Bama lean in the other direction. Thankfully, we all get to guide our own children based on our own values and experiences.
Ranking is just one of the factors we use to evaluate whether to apply to particular college, and ultimately whether to choose one school over another. I consider UA to be a great value school, esp. with its generous OOS merit aid. We also appreciate the strong sense of community at UA from what we’ve seen on this message board, Facebook and others. The 4-year graduation rate is kind of a red flag, but by itself is not that informative. As someone else said, it could be tied to the strength of the admitted student, or it could be some structural problems at the university. At this point I do not know the answer to that. One thing I do look at is the financial health of the university - there are a number of flagship public colleges, including highly ranked ones like UConn, that have serious budget issues.
Bama seems to be somewhat unique in that it has two extremes of students - the top 40% of the entering freshman class have a 30+ ACT, and 34% have a GPA of 4.0 or higher - this “large” segment of the student body is more aligned with what you might see at a Top 50 school. There is no doubt that generous merit aid attracts top students to Bama and it works well for them.
My D is a freshman at Bama and our experience is nothing but positive. While I don’t care too much about the USNews Rankings, I am surprised Bama does not do better as the school seems very well run. Personally, I am not convinced that there is material difference once you get above the Top 50 anyways. I also don’t see Bama working the PR saying they want to climb the USNews Rankings like other schools publicly state - they seem content to attract a high stat pool of students through scholarships, but yet remain accessible to all levels of students . . . many of whom are full pay! My D’s Honors classes are small (15 students), English classes are small (22 students), Math class larger at 90 students, online class huge at 400 students which hurts ranking but who cares with the online delivery which serves its purpose well. The campus is beautiful, school spirit is high, and 38k students enjoy going to Bama! The school invests heavily in everything from the classroom to infrastructure to football and their business plan seems to be working very well.
Re the lower 4 year grad rate - this does seem low and I’m not sure exactly why. There are many students on the Presidential scholarship which offers 5 yrs of scholarship - many double major, study abroad, do internships, etc - they may be in no rush given the financial incentives. Co-ops maybe another reason. This may also not be the best excuse but . . . many students love Bama and may not be in any rush to leave! Oh well, my own D came in with lots of AP credit and will be done in 2.5 years so she’ll help this metric in future rankings. We’ll see how things progress but absolutely no issue getting classes and staying on track or in our case well ahead of track.
Do Alabama residents consider the other public universities to be equal in academic opportunities to the flagship? Not everyone cares about the sleep away experience, but if they are not viewed to be equal in academic opportunities, then it would be a fair assessment to say that access to the flagship and its academic opportunities is based mostly on whether a student comes from a family that contributes enough money, or has high enough academic credentials (much higher than those needed for admission) to earn a large enough scholarship and lives in the Tuscaloosa area (to be within commuting range).
There is obviously an intense rivalry between Alabama and Auburn, so an Alabama person is not going to view Auburn favorably and vice versa. As far as the other universities, that is going to be somewhat regional and interest based. University of North Alabama is the closest to where I live(an hour away) and obviously they get a lot of students from this region, not sure how they are viewed in other parts of the state. Many in my area have gone to UNA to get a degree in their later years and commuted, typical college age students are probably split between those that commute and those that live on or near campus. UAB is well regarded for health science professions and UAH is well thought of for fields like engineering and technology. South Alabama would be a rare consideration for most people I know, as would Auburn-Montgomery.
My nephew went to Alabama for mechanical engineering and did a co-op with Mercedes, so obviously didn’t graduate in 4 years. He didn’t receive any scholarships or financial aid so they basically borrowed the full amount and are now paying it back. I have a cousin that was a music education major there, but he did receive a voice scholarship and his parents were able to cover the rest of the expenses, that was a few years ago before it was quite as expensive. His sister transferred there after 2 years at the local community college, with some outside scholarships and parental contribution she also graduated debt free. I have not known anyone from our school that received any significant merit aid from Alabama, only those receiving scholarships for music, cheerleading, etc.
My son is a senior and though he might go ahead and apply, it is very unlikely that it will even be close to affordable. It is very rare for anyone at our school to hit a 30 or above on the ACT, so most will not qualify for merit aid.