U of C/Harvard

<p>My son's options include both the U of C (which has offered him a lot of merit $) and Harvard. I'm very familiar with some aspects of the U of C world, having gone to graduate school there a couple decades ago, but I'm not so familiar with the undergraduate experience. I'd be interested in hearing from people - especially current students, recent alums, and parents of same - about the case to be made for the proposition that the undergraduate experience at the U of C is equal to, or superior than, the Harvard undergraduate experience. To the extent possible, I'd really prefer to avoid the sort of gleeful, quick-take Harvard-bashing that, it seems, can be found almost anywhere. (I guess that goes with the territory when you have the sort of iconic status that Harvard seems to have.) I'm particularly interested, that is, in hearing the case to be made for the U of C (as opposed to the case to be made against Harvard).</p>

<p>I'm curious..did your D apply EA to Chicago? The reason I ask is many kids out here did and I cannot seem to find anyone who has heard about any scholarship $ out of that group.</p>

<p>No, he applied RD.</p>

<p>The princeton review ranks the University of Chicago as the "#1 Overall Undergraduate Academic Experience." Thought you would be interested.</p>

<p>Yes, I'm familiar with this Princeton Review ranking, but, frankly, I'm not really sure what it means. I just don't know enough about how they come up with these rankings. If anyone has any light to shed on that - and on this ranking in particular - that would be helpful.</p>

<p>My S attends Chicago as a first year so I will try to be of some assistance. Of course it would be interesting to know what your son would like to study. My S also turned down an Ivy, and turned down scholarships to top 25 universities to attend Chicago. Words to describe his undergrad experience include intense, exhilerating, tiring, challenging. He has found the school to be diverse. In one math class he is taking there are just a few white males, most others are Asian, Eastern European, etc. Students are serious and enjoy the tag that Chicago is where "fun goes to die". He has found time to attend the Chicago symphony orchestra, snow ball fights, Doc movies, and the classic conversations at coffee shops until 2:00 AM. He has attended seminars given by Nationally known academics but also spent hours preparing for his classes. He looks forward to taking graduate level classes offered to undergraduate students probably beginning Junior year. He is a strong proponent of the core and so far has read Aristotle, St. Augustine, Dante, Kant and many others. He has been very impressed by his professors. He has had one class taught by a TA but enjoyed the TA tremendously-shocked with his knowlege. My S was recently selected for a National Science Foundation scholarship to study and research math this summer for 8 weeks. There are several USA Math Olympiad students in his class. He firmly believes he was selected because of the reputation of Chicago in the academic community. Sporting events at Chicago are not well attended as the students are less interested in that aspect of the college experience. There are fraternities and sororities but not heavily emphasized.
I will leave it that for now, if you have more questions, I would be glad to respond.</p>

<p>grasslands:</p>

<p>In answer to your question re what my son wants to study, at this point the answer would be just about everything. At 17, he hasn't yet settled on any particular path academically, much less any sort of career path. In high school, he's really loved all kinds of things: physics, European history, calculus, philosophy, Asian studies - you name it.</p>

<p>Well, that's a good start for Chicago. My S considers one of his roommates a "Renaissance" Man. Interested in everything, good artist, might study math, might study physics. I have no idea why Chicago was selected as best for undergraduate. I am a little suspect of Princeton Review I think there is a little marketing going on but I find it intersting that my son has met a number of students at Chicago that only applied to Univ of Chicago. Chicago has a reputation for grabbing kids who have been accepted to "more prestigious" schools because of the fit. You will find drinking at Chicago but much less than at other schools. The layout at Chicago as you probably know is very convenient. The Max Pavleski dorm is close to the dining hall, the library and the campus. Very convenient. Why do you think your son was accepted at Harvard. Does Harvard offer things to him that you do not belive might be available at Chicago? Besides the name of course.</p>

<p>grasslands:</p>

<p>In response to your questions:</p>

<p>--Re why my son, as opposed to any of the thousands of other highly qualified applicants, was admitted to Harvard is something that I think is probably unknowable. What I do know is that, in addition to the usual things (great grades, test scores, ECs, etc.), he apparently really clicked with the alum who interviewed him. From what I've read, it seems that interviews can sometimes play an important role in the Harvard admissions process (something that, frankly, neither he nor I knew at the time of the interview).</p>

<p>--One thing that Harvard would offer him, which the U of C can't, is a dramatic change of scene: we live in the Chicago area.</p>

<p>Please forgive me if this reply seems rude.... Fistly, thank you very much for caring so much about your son's school/college experience. However, I do believe that it would be much more helpfull if HE were here asking the questions telling us what HE is looking for, instead of his parent's "opinion" about what he wants... I say this merely because many kids I know have confessed that they feel stiffled by their parents while at school, and that they consider going to college a safe heaven from such constant pressure... And parent's views about what their kids "want" tend to be notoriously inaccurate (even if your kid wont confess so).
I'm not saying this is your particular case... Just that it happens and it would be helpfull for US if your son told us what he wants directly.</p>

<p>I would take Harvard in a second over Chicago. I'm sorry, but that lure of prestige is really just way too much.</p>

<p>But if you want a pro, Harvard seems to be in a better "college" town than Chicago. Also, the Red Sox and Patriots are better than the Cubs/White Sox and Bears.</p>

<p>Teo
all the parents on this thread seem to be saying that there kids are interested in many different academic areas, I don't get even a whiff of a parent urging their kid to go in a certain direction.........
The only information that epistrophy is seeking is opinions on the undergraduate experience in UChicago.</p>

<p>Are you a student at UChicago?</p>

<p>teotihuacan:</p>

<p>Hmmmm . . . I think I'll leave it to others to decide whether your post is "rude." </p>

<p>But as to its substance, actually, I don't think that I've presumed to say what my son wants - other than to note, specifically in response to another poster's question, that his interests are really wide-ranging. I'm simply trying to get some more information about the undergraduate experience at the U of C, so that he can make as informed a decision as possible. And part of the reason why I'm talking here, as opposed to him (not that I feel as though I should have to justify this), is that he's out of the country and will continue to be for another week, in an area where he doesn't have ready access to the internet. (Heck - at this point, he doesn't even know where he's been accepted.)</p>

<p>epistrophy, all things being equal one would choose Harvard over any other, but in this case due to scholarship, all is not equal. Bottom line is where will S prosper best and if dollars are an issue would Chicago satisfy. If you can afford and S prefers H then certainly H it will be. But if there is a question about $ and there is a question of how one might prosper at H then Chicago is in play. If you have questions please let the Chicago community know.</p>

<p>I know this has been said many time before, but I'll mention it again. There is no evidence that where one goes to undergraduate school has any affect on later success. It doesn't matter if one goes to an Ivy or a State school, for the same student, the result will be the same. Actually, if great monetary success is the goal, one is better off without Harvard or Chicago. The question is simply, "Where does one want to go that most fits one's view of what college should be?" If it is rigorous academic pursuit, then it is Chicago, if it more oriented to social activities with very smart people, then it's Harvard.</p>

<p>"There is no evidence that where one goes to undergraduate school has any affect on later success."</p>

<p>Uh, take a look at the # of people that Wharton and UCLA Anderson admitted last year to their MBA programs, and you'll see it does make a big difference. Consequently, they get better jobs as a result of having gone to a great B-School.</p>

<p>"Actually, if great monetary success is the goal, one is better off without Harvard or Chicago."</p>

<p>Salaries for people coming out of Harvard or Chicago are much higher than at most other schools...so how does that make sense?</p>

<p>Granted, it's not like going to a state school makes you a failure. But it doesn't make it any easier to do well, while going to Chicago or Harvard DOES make it easier.</p>

<p>jpps1, your post above (16) is a classic example of the problem so many people have with analyzing colleges. The question you asked and ansered is "Do Harvard people do better than non Harvard people?" and of course, the answer is yes. But, if you asked the question "Do kids with rich parents have higher living standards as adults than kids with poor parents?" the answer would also be yes, but have little to do with the kid, and everything to do with the parents. </p>

<p>In this situation, the proper question to ask is " how would the same kid who is Harvard material do if they attended, say, Chicago, or U. Kansas?" and research has shown that they would do the same.</p>

<p>you gotta control for inputs in situations like this. There has been a great deal of press obfuscating this point. No doubt the public affairs offices of elites have a hand in this obfuscation.</p>

<p>The one real difference is bragging rights. </p>

<p>BTW, my D is a first year at Chicago, and has about 15 classmates at Harvard. So far, when she compares notes, she finds her ed situation much more interesting. I would say the biggest difference is that Chicago wants faculty who teach undergrads, and only uses TA's for science labs and discussion sections. (OK, maybe intro language courses, too). Harvard has more classes taught by grad students. Name faculty seldom appear in lectures for mere undergrads.</p>

<p>Most definitely agree. Like they say in Mexico... "Buen gallo canta donde sea".</p>

<p>Epistrophy: If you sincerely believe that you gan give your son the information about these two colleges in such a manner that your personal views are not biasing the information, then please do so. It is important your son be informed so as to make the choices that will make him happiest.</p>

<p>As to effect of school on later success, the folklore still suggests it is the school, but longitudinal studies continue to show, it make no difference at the undergrad level once one controls for the student. At the grad or professional level it does make an initial difference in salary. However, a recent poll of top CEO's found that they tended to be from state schools, and the Ivy grads worked for them. Also 61% of the students at Harvard Law are from non Ivy schools.</p>