U. of Chicago: Is University Strength Declining?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
41

@exacademic

The Nature index goes back several years - just click “annual tables” to go to another year. I think it goes back to 2012. Chicago usually varies from like #22 to #35. The top ten almost always include Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.

@exacademic -.Do you have some data or metrics that point to the bsd improving? Everything I see points to a decline, but I’m far from an expert here.

(I should add - at the college level, research output and nih funding matters very little. I wouldn’t care much about those factors when looking at undergrad bio programs.
My post looks at university health more generally.)

@reuynshard - yes, some departments rise and some decline, but some departments are certainly more important than others. A university’s STEM plant is critical, and Chicago doesn’t yet have the infrastructure (in comp sci and engineering) AND a big part of its current architecture (med/bsd) seems to be in more than temporary decline.

When all other top comprenhensive research schools are rushing to build their STEM plant, missing parts and deterioration in existing parts is not good.

Frankly, it’s one thing if Chicago’s public policy school or service school are in decline. It’s another thing altogether if the bsd and medical plant are going from national prominence to regional stature.

42

I feel like you could take any university in the country and cherry pick stats about individual departments to convince yourself that the entire place is in decline rather than on the rise… if that is what you really want to do.

43

@ThankYouforHelp

Chicago has always aggressively claimed that it stands as one of the top handful of research universities in the country. Up until 1950, it was arguably one of the top two.

Now, I think there’s data that really flies in the face of that claim. Also, I don’t think pointing out the decline of bsd and uchicago medicine - roughly 35% of the school’s overall footprint - is “cherrypicking”.

Finally, if you can point to noticeable decline in KEY areas for the major research Us (Harvard, Stanford, etc), I’m all ears.

44

@Cue7 IMHO I think you are a tad pessimistic. On the one hand, I think you raise some important concern about U of C that the administration seriously needs to work on. On the other hand, BSD and Medical School are never U of C core strength. Ranking is to me a beauty contest. Still for whatever it is worth the Shanghai rating (the most objective one to me) has been ranking U of C Medical School in the mediocre level for years. The same goes for Biological Science.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/FieldMED2007.html

http://www.shanghairanking.com/FieldLIFE2007.html

I would also argue that giving both divisions 35% weight to the whole university is seriously misleading. Right now U of C has five divisions, seven professional schools and the College. I am assuming each of them is a more or less equal but integral part of the university. Of course, the outlay of school capital may be different. Yet are you saying Humanities Division is worth less because it is not as capital intensive as Medical School?

Ultimately, I am of the opinion that it is very hard to judge the overall health of any university at any specific point. Departments go through ups and downs. There are hot research topics that go out of style in a couple of decades. In the end it is my firm belief that we can look back and evaluate the health of the university in its history but not right at this moment. There are simply too many moving parts and subjective elements that defies an overall qualitative judgment of an university.

45

@85bears46 said:

“Right now U of C has five divisions, seven professional schools and the College. I am assuming each of them is a more or less equal but integral part of the university. Of course, the outlay of school capital may be different. Yet are you saying Humanities Division is worth less because it is not as capital intensive as Medical School?”

To answer your question, I am absolutely assuming that the schools with the university are NOT roughly equal. Look at any top university, and the chief growth and capital investment is in STEM.

Look at the plans for comp sci or engineering at Chicago - I guarantee you the school is prioritizing growth in these fields much more than other departments that also aren’t traditional powerhouses (like psychology, art history, etc.)

You can read about the push for comp sci here: https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2016/11/29/push-world-class-new-direction-computer-science-de/

Even though psychology could probably use big help too, the resources are clearly going to comp sci.

Same goes for the social service school, public policy, etc - Chicago clearly is focused on stem and certain other core strengths (like economics) more than other areas.

Chicago isn’t that only school prioritizing in this manner. Far from it. Yale hired 38 new faculty this year. They nearly hired as many in their stem fields (17) as in their other major divisions combined (21).

Source: http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/01/24/university-hires-13-new-professors/

So, yes, schools within the university certainly are not equal, and med/bsd gets a disproportionate share of the attention. The decline in this area, then, indicates a decline that is outsized for the university.

Again, if the Harris school or our social service school, or our divinity school, had signs of decline, I’d be much less worried. Heck, one donation could turn that around. For med/bsd, 10+ years of decline signifies a much greater issue, and the current fundraising campaign may be too little too late.

46

Does anyone know what the expectations are in terms of the Obama Presidential Library going in and the impact that will have on the university?

47

For a major research university, BSD and the Medical School have to be a core strength because that is where the money is. If you recall, the reason why the University of Nebraska was kicked out of the AAU was because they could not count med school funding in their research totals:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/higher_education/losing-aau-status-not-fatal-for-nebraska/article_e93dccc6-ed16-11e5-9aa9-0312c0e2e5e6.html

You can pull NIH research funding from the following site:

http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/NIH_Awards.htm

For 2016, UChicago is #28 in terms of total funding. Here are the schools up to 50. Note that differences infunding between schools is huge.

From the BLUE RIDGE INSTITUTE for MEDICAL RESEARCH BRIMR.ORG
Rank Name School of Medicine Direct Costs Direct Costs % Indirect Costs %
1 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SAN FRANCISCO $501,632,848 $376,809,182 75.1 24.9
2 JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY $419,316,291 $328,490,642 78.3 21.7
3 STANFORD UNIVERSITY $376,153,942 $264,578,353 70.3 29.7
4 UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA $368,619,611 $266,161,711 72.2 27.8
5 WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY $349,625,564 $265,663,856 76.0 24.0
6 YALE UNIVERSITY $319,071,104 $222,007,815 69.6 30.4
7 UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH AT PITTSBURGH $316,697,428 $230,365,193 72.7 27.3
8 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN DIEGO $291,339,889 $217,090,923 74.5 25.5
9 VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY $291,195,527 $213,314,577 73.3 26.7
10 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES $291,031,852 $222,553,634 76.5 23.5
11 UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN $287,744,360 $206,319,748 71.7 28.3
12 DUKE UNIVERSITY $285,286,138 $206,586,236 72.4 27.6
13 UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON $285,094,767 $210,876,476 74.0 26.0
14 COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY HEALTH SCIENCES $280,486,544 $199,429,377 71.1 28.9
15 ICAHN SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AT MOUNT SINAI $257,404,722 $179,456,177 69.7 30.3
16 UNIV OF NORTH CAROLINA CHAPEL HILL $251,086,279 $192,029,464 76.5 23.5
17 EMORY UNIVERSITY $231,232,766 $169,268,493 73.2 26.8
18 NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY AT CHICAGO $220,611,130 $161,614,734 73.3 26.7
19 MAYO CLINIC ROCHESTER $208,309,169 $150,047,129 72.0 28.0
20 BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE $205,461,582 $161,127,155 78.4 21.6
21 HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL $177,685,859 $133,485,953 75.1 24.9
22 NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE $177,656,751 $128,626,073 72.4 27.6
23 UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO DENVER $173,514,031 $131,807,363 76.0 24.0
24 UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON $172,460,024 $131,576,592 76.3 23.7
25 UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM $164,244,305 $128,066,800 78.0 22.0
26 UT SOUTHWESTERN MEDICAL CENTER $157,099,218 $109,378,875 69.6 30.4
27 OREGON HEALTH & SCIENCE UNIVERSITY $155,348,118 $115,501,433 74.4 25.6
28 UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO $153,448,137 $110,117,916 71.8 28.2
29 ALBERT EINSTEIN COLLEGE OF MEDICINE $142,470,750 $104,701,128 73.5 26.5
30 CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY $139,662,292 $101,969,416 73.0 27.0
31 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT DAVIS $137,332,864 $99,260,532 72.3 27.7
32 UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA $128,042,837 $93,538,210 73.1 26.9
33 UNIV OF MASSACHUSETTS MED SCH WORCESTER $123,664,751 $81,144,675 65.6 34.4
34 UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER $119,511,225 $87,345,731 73.1 26.9
35 UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA $118,785,027 $81,780,740 68.8 31.2
36 WEILL MEDICAL COLL OF CORNELL UNIV $118,040,120 $84,738,378 71.8 28.2
37 UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND BALTIMORE $109,706,945 $79,898,253 72.8 27.2
38 INDIANA UNIV-PURDUE UNIV AT INDIANAPOLIS $108,757,238 $79,379,887 73.0 27.0
39 UNIVERSITY OF IOWA $105,557,161 $77,889,637 73.8 26.2
40 UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA $101,216,418 $78,812,779 77.9 22.1
41 UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI SCHOOL OF MEDICINE $97,351,176 $70,330,154 72.2 27.8
42 CLEVELAND CLINIC LERNER COM-CWRU $94,712,580 $65,322,990 69.0 31.0
43 BOSTON UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CAMPUS $93,985,382 $68,495,311 72.9 27.1
44 UNIVERSITY OF UTAH $93,849,370 $71,245,256 75.9 24.1
45 OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY $91,976,792 $65,647,676 71.4 28.6
46 UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA $88,772,563 $69,170,811 77.9 22.1
47 MEDICAL COLLEGE OF WISCONSIN $85,553,707 $68,841,470 80.5 19.5
48 UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA $82,117,700 $63,354,840 77.2 22.8
49 MEDICAL UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA $80,730,464 $61,135,479 75.7 24.3
50 WAKE FOREST UNIVERSITY HEALTH SCIENCES $80,046,941 $61,879,858 77.3 22.7

One can argue that #28 is not bad, but are UChicago’s historical rankings dating between 2014 and 2001. The med school rose to #19 in the 2007 to 2009 time frame, but has slipped since then.

UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO 28 29 23 20 22 19 19 19 21 23 27 24 26 26

During the same time period, NU went from #40 to #22

NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY 22 22 21 24 27 27 27 29 34 35 38 48 39 40

Rush went from unranked to #67

RUSH UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER 67 69 75 81 79 79 81 83 84 81 83 NA NA NA

UIC stayed about the same.

UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT CHICAGO 49 47 47 47 49 50 47 49 46 52 48 45 47 48

Finally, if you look at the sources of UChicago’s research funding, the med school and biology/chemistry provide the largest share of UChicago’s research funding.

https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2016/01/20/university-s-sponsored-research-funding-slightly-fy2015

48

Actually, a lot of the federal money is in defense-related research. Hopkins gets more money for that than biomed.

49

Yale hired 38 new faculty this year because they opened two new residential colleges and expanded undergraduate enrollment by almost 15 percent this year. Johns Hopkins has an aggressive fundraiser going on because its current endowment is less than half that of the U of C despite a total enrollment nearly 50 percent higher than Chicago’s, including 5000 more graduate students.

You are cherrypicking garbage stats to meet your gloom and doom scenario and it is getting kind of ridiculous. “Too little too late” - “losing ground fast” - “The University is dropping to regional stature” Might as well pack it up and go home U of C, Cue7 says you’re finished.

I guess I’m done with this conversation.

50

I quite agree. There has never been a better time for UChicago. It is globally prominent as one of the world’s elite institutions and had a global reputation that exceeds most Ivy’s. The last hold out was the College, and that has been rectified in an astonishing way over the past 5 years. UChicago is a real momentum school right now. Be happy,

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@Cue7 my claim wasn’t about “BSD” (which, to me, is kind of a meaningless category) – it was about ec/evo bio specifically (one of two subfields my kid is most interested in). Impression comes from acquisition of MBL, seeing PhD program outrank Harvard, and good hires/strong junior faculty. Her other interest is neuroscience and I don’t have a read on UofC’s trajectory wrt that subfield.

The publication and grant data you’ve offered up aren’t compelling to me. At the most basic level, I’d need to see that kind of data controlled for program size and to see a longer time-series. More substantively, I’d need to know more about specific fields and about governmental funding priorities vs where faculty at UofC see the field headed. Got the most $ from the govt doesn’t inherently mean doing the best/most cutting-edge work to me. Similarly, published the most articles doesn’t necessarily mean is doing the most important work.

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uchicago medical center is tiny compared to all the schools above it. if you’re going to look at total research dollars, it will never be ranked high. As of a few years ago, it was top 5 in funding per faculty member (i think 3?). Not sure what rank it’s at now in regards to that.

53

I still assert that the Med School is not in decline. It has actually ascended. It has historically been top 15 so how could it have declined if it is now considered a “top 10”?

The hospital may not be faring as well as the competition but that does not mean much to the Med School. As long as there is enough space for all the grads to practice and train in their fields at the hospital or other affiliates, then its fine.

Owning a hospital is not even necessary. Doesnt Harvard sends its peeps to Mass Gen and Cornell and Columbia to NY Presbyterian?

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I disagree with the assertion that BSD and Med School HAS to be a core strength.

Let’s use an analogy… Harvard Engineering is ranked in the 30’s and it lags behind engineering schools of its peer universities or even the engineering schools of tier 2 universities like CMU and Purdue. BUT no one in their right mind would conclude that Harvard is not a great research university because it has a weak spot.

So absurd. This thread is absurd.

I’m out.

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@Zinhead Why does Harvard’s medical school receive so little?

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No, but it can be very profitable. Both Northwestern and Loyola operate much larger regional health systems than UChicago.

According to the above, Harvard had $177 million in NIH funding. According to Wikipedia:

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http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2016/NIH_Awards_2016.htm

Chicago actually dropped a little more in the latest report…

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BSD’s weakness is clearly conspicuous at this point. I do have confidence in this administration though. They are putting pressure on PIs that haven’t been that successful at attaining grants as of late. I personally know of a few faculty members who have received personal visits from the Dean.

I just want to point out that most of us are alumni proud to have graduated from UChicago or parents ecstatic to have children attending the University. I used to get insulted when people criticize my alma mater. I don’t take criticisms personally because I know it’s not a perfect school, and there is still a lot of work to be done to maintain this institution’s preeminence going forward.

59

I’d like to see a per capita comparison of schools, something the website provided lacks.

60

Honestly I find it totally amusing to see these two thread going on in parallel: “U of Chicago: The Meteoric Rise” vs “U of Chicago: is University Strength Declining?” The bulls and bears of U of C can go to each thread and find their opinion justified.

I would go back to my own thesis that you can’t really objectively evaluate the health or even reputation of a university. There are too many moving parts, unverifiable data points and unquantifiable attributes. Ultimately it is a beauty contest again. Yet it is fun for the participants. So who am I to pour cold water on everyone on CC?