<p>^And for the win, La Contra (as in contrary? just kidding 
)</p>
<p>"If US colleges did not allow foreign students then you are rightâŠUS High school students could be as dumb as you likeâŠbe ranked 55 if you like, who cares? "</p>
<p>they couldnt be as dumb as we like, cause they need to work and contribute.</p>
<p>I do not buy your argument about limited college slots. I dont think the number of likely applicants to US colleges from China is unlimited for many reasons. One of which, is the day a college like Yale is over 50% PRC citizens, it simply isnt going to be as desirable to PRC students. The Groucho Marx problem. They are coming, in part, for exposure to and contacts with Americans. However if you are concerned about keeping slots at SOME good colleges for Americans, well most State Uâs are going to keep a minimum number of slots for in state residents. Some of those State Us are already elite, and more can become so.</p>
<p>I think the argument most of us are having is about educational quality, our economic competitiveness, etc. Not about competition for college slots. thats your (I think misguided) obsession.</p>
<p>BBD</p>
<p>âŠâYOU are making the claim they do. Its up to YOU to show that they doâ</p>
<p>Iâm afraid Iâll have to disagree.</p>
<p>The OECD/PISA exam has been formulated, the testing completed, the data compiled, and the results tested, and then independently re-tested and reviewed academically (the Maths Faculty at my university was one of the institutions involved) before the findings were actually published.</p>
<p>Iâm with them.</p>
<p>If others claim the study was flawed let them prove their contentions.</p>
<p>Me?
My field is International RelationsâŠ(Statistic drive me nuts. 
)</p>
<p>But Iâll take a wild stab in the dark and say if a bunch parents on this forum can propose that diversity and poverty would affect the figuresâŠ
âŠThen the statisticians at the OECD and at a few major university Maths Departments probably figured that out tooâŠ</p>
<p>I mean, its only an internationally recognised group of educators, academics, and statisticians dedicated to creating the most coherent and complete set of comparative results for 15 year olds in 34 different countries⊠of course they forgot to weight the sample for regional diversity and poverty!</p>
<p>"Students from Poland, Dubai, Hong Kong, Russia, or Singapore arenât signing up for
the University of Frankfurt "</p>
<p>âAs the most frequented website for Chinese students wanting to go to Germany since its foundation in 2000, more than 50,000 Chinese high-school graduates have informed themselves about studying in Germany through [”ĂÂčĂșĂÎçĂĂžâabcdv.netâĂĂÂčĂșĂߎó”Ă”ĂÂčĂșĂÎçĂà »§ĂĂžĂŸ</a> ĂÎç”ĂÂčĂș|”ĂĂĂŻĂ Ă Ă”](<a href=âhttp://www.abcdv.net%5D%C2%B5%C3%82%C2%B9%C3%BA%C3%81%C3%B4%C3%91%C2%A7%C3%8D%C3%B8âabcdv.netâ%C3%96%C3%90%C2%B9%C3%BA%C3%97%C3%AE%C2%B4%C3%B3%C2%B5%C3%84%C2%B5%C3%82%C2%B9%C3%BA%C3%81%C3%B4%C3%91%C2%A7%C3%83%C3%85%C2%BB%C2%A7%C3%8D%C3%B8%C3%95%C2%BEâ>http://www.abcdv.net). The forum further assists Chinese students in Germany about how to quickly and successfully graduate from German universities.â</p>
<p>that took ten seconds to google.</p>
<p>I am concerned for this country. That people cant bother doing the simplist, most basic, online background research before making assertions in an online argument, does not augur well for us.</p>
<p>BBD</p>
<p>Cool.
So we disagree on the finite/infinite ability of US colleges to create placements
and we disagree somewhat on why Foreign students study abroad.</p>
<p>You go with your gut on this one⊠I respect that.</p>
<p>However Iâm based in the UK at the moment at a major UK university which is very popular with Int Students (the Chinese being only one of many) , and I promise you, the trend demonstrated in the PISA results have sent a shockwave through the higher education establishment here for the reasons I am stating.</p>
<p>The US and Uk are pretty much in the same boat results wise and the UK is very concerned.
But for the US I suppose the famous Alfred E. Neuman says it bestâŠ</p>
<p>âWhat, me worry?â</p>
<p>"The OECD/PISA exam has been formulated, the testing completed, the data compiled, and the results tested, and then independently re-tested and reviewed academically (the Maths Faculty at my university was one of the institutions involved) before the findings were actually published.</p>
<p>Iâm with them.</p>
<p>If others claim the study was flawed let them prove their contentions."</p>
<p>I am NOT claiming it was flawed!!! </p>
<p>Its goal was to present differences in performance, NOT to judge causality. Nothing in your paragraph above indicates that adjustment was made for socioeconomic factors. Note there are many other possible factors that could impact performance, from educational variables, to cultural variable to socio economic variables. They could NOT adjust for all of them. It would be unwise to have tried.</p>
<p>I am NOT criticizing PISA. AFAICT they used proper methodology to present results on student performance on certain tests, and they have been transparent about their methodology.</p>
<p>I AM critizing posters here on CC, who are making judgements about causality based on the PISA data, judgements that PISA is not making. </p>
<p>âThen the statisticians at the OECD and at a few major university Maths Departments probably figured that out tooâŠâ</p>
<p>I am sure they did figure it out. And judged the attempt to determine the impact of socio economic factors to be out of scope.</p>
<p>"I mean, its only an internationally recognised group of educators, academics, and statisticians dedicated to creating the most coherent and complete set of comparative results for 15 year olds in 34 different countries⊠of course they forgot to weight the sample for regional diversity and poverty! "</p>
<p>What I dont think you are getting, is that there is no simple way to âweightâ for the impacts of poverty. I am discussing social causal factors, not a âmisweightingâ of results. Thats why I keep asking you to cite methodology. I think you imagine there is some magic âweightingâ formula. I am not sure you understand what weighting means. </p>
<p>yes, you could take income levels, stratify for that, and reweight on what scores would be if all countries had the same poverty levels. Assuming you had income data for all tested subjects. But you could do the same for a hundred hypothesized variables. And thousands of combinations of variables. Where would it end? And that certainly wouldnt work for income inequality, which is not a test taker attribute, but a societal attribute. </p>
<p>If I were running the PISA study, I would do just what they did, show the test scores, and not try to do an analysis to show causality. I would let other researchers take the data and go on from there. </p>
<p>Ergo, you cannot use the fact that they are competent and credentialed to prove that they would do an elaborate sociological analysis that competent and credentialed statisticians would not be required to do.</p>
<p>BBD</p>
<p>Fine.
Keep Googling and see how many âenrolâ against how many are âinformedâ
and then compare it to Chinese actual enrolments in the US.</p>
<p>50000 âlookedâ on a website?
Big deal. The US had 100,000 enrol last year aloneâŠI wonder how many more âlookedâ on a website?</p>
<p>âŠand Iâm fed up with contributors who are fixated on Chinese students as the only Foreign students that go to the USâŠ;)</p>
<p>PISA donât make judgements, thatâs not their job.
They also donât simply throw raw data into public sphere oh behalf of the OECD, thatâs not their job either.</p>
<p>So fineâŠ14th, 17th, 25th
The tests donât matter, the results are flawed, it was all a waste of time and the rest of the OECD shouldnât even bother reading the results much less utilise them in future policy formulation.</p>
<p>So OP Dave Berry can rest easy now.
THERE IS NO PROBLEMâŠok Dave?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is just stupidly ignorant. As you even go on to hint at, France has absolutely gazillions of international students.</p>
<p>Keepittoyourself.</p>
<p>Iâm sorry Iâm guilty of using a bit on âindustry thinkâ there.</p>
<p>Germany and France have a lot of âforeignâ students.
However in EU Universities, students from within the EU do not count as International Students.</p>
<p>There are generally 3 divisions (and fee scales)
Citizens/ EU Citizens/ International</p>
<p>ieâŠWhen a Brit studies in France he is not an international student but an EU student.
When an American studies in France he is a International Student.</p>
<p>So in one way, yes, France has a lot of non-French students (as does Germany)
But its not International Students in the way the US, the UK, and Australian universities define them.</p>
<p>Ok? Sorry for the mix up.</p>
<p>Yes, Iâm familiar with all that thank you. But as you mentioned, France has a lot of students from outside the Union, especially from its former empire and other Francophone regions.</p>
<p>And this is hardly unusual â most of the the foreign students at Cambridge are from the UKâs former empire, arenât they?</p>
<p>LOL, look at some apologist trying to use socioeconomic factors, of all things, to explain away the failures of the US, of all countries. So suddenly itâs not the fault of the rich white kids but the poor immigrants who are pulling down the scores for everyone. Itâs not the immigrants who are more hardworking than your average hard-partying, text-200-messages-a-day non-immigrant kids. Claiming the U.S. is poorer and less able than the likes of Finland to produce good kids is one of the biggest lies Iâve seen on these boards. Suddenly the richest country in the world also has the worst socioeconomic problems? So itâs not that your kids are lazy. Itâs the environment, teachers, everything else other than your kids (and yourselves). You wonât be the richest country for long with that kind of BS, this much I can tell you.</p>
<p>Please donât flatter yourself. Other countries have their problems too, whether or not you choose to acknowledge their existence. They still kicked your ass well and good.</p>
<p>Well I did make the point that what International Students do study in France mostly are Francophone African, French Polynesia, citizens of French Overseas Territories, or North American FrancophonesâŠas one would expect, and given French efforts to maintain ties and influence with former colonies its hardly a surprise.</p>
<p>But I would argue that it does not represent an effort to engage International Students per se as much as cater to the French speaking worldâŠlets seeâŠ
So in 2007 France placed,
107000 Francophone Africans
15000 Francophone North America
45000 Oceania/Asia
54000 EU</p>
<p>So since the EU doesnât actually count as âInternationalâ in French University admissions</p>
<p>I would argue that the provision of University placements to a strictly French speaking pool of candidates does not equate with being a university system actively courting a truly international pool of candidatesâŠrather its a provision placements to the French-only language world. </p>
<p>That leaves 45000 from Asia and Oceania of which some will be from former colonies or current overseas territoriesâŠbut lets not quibble most will be Chinese so lets say that leaves 45,000 truly international students (not French speaking specialists)</p>
<p>The US had 586,000
The UK had 104,000
Australia had 120,000</p>
<p>And yes Cambridge has a small majority of ex empire international studentsâŠOf course the Brit Empire was vast⊠rather difficult for it not to be the case.</p>
<p>However the UK doesnât simply â â â â â its ex-colonies or limit itself to the English speaking world for candidates, as the French system does.
Neither does the US. Neither does Australia</p>
<p>So when it comes to countries which cater and promote themselves as University destinations to International students (not just to their neighbours and fellow linguists) the top destinations are the US, the UK, Australia, </p>
<p>I stand by my original claim (with a small modifier then)
Sweden, France and Germany are niche providers of placements to truly International Students.</p>
<p>The majority of the students in the US lack motivation
US teacher preparation is poor. Imagine you do not have to graduate with a math or biology major to teach the subject.
Major gaps in the quality and effectiveness of our schools.
Parents tend not to care about making changes unless their kids future is at risk.</p>
<p>I canât really comment on schooling for students who donât want to be at school throughout K-12, because I canât relate to that, but Iâm all too familiar with the shortcomings of our education system for advanced students.</p>
<p>I donât remember taking too many standardized exams (maybe 1 a year K-8 and then the CAHSEE and a few others in High School), but almost every person I know always scored in the 99 percentile, sometimes a little lower, like 95th in reading if that person was more mathematically inclined. </p>
<p>I always remember our teachers saying to us in elementary school to try hard on these standardized tests to make up for all the students that didnât try, so that our school could get more funding, but it didnât help.</p>
<p>You would think more funding would be allocated to programs for advanced students, allowing them to pursue more advanced material. Why should a class of 3rd grade students who are mostly at the 6th grade math and reading level, not be allowed to progress through the normal 3rd grade humanities curriculum with (Either switch into classes with people 3 years older then them, and skip learning information that helps balance out their education, or suffer through learning the same math and science over and over because there is no system set up to support them).</p>
<p>I guess I might be a student who wished they could take much more math and physics in elementary school. I guess the point is to foster a desire to learn, but the issue seems to be there are many kids who really want to learn, and theyâre being deprived of knowledge and there are some kids who donât want to be there, and theyâre not being helped either. Trying to solve these problems with a single elegant solution would require major reform on the entire outlook of our education system, but they can at least help the poor advanced students who arenât being sufficiently satisfied</p>
<p>When I was in 3rd grade we were doing fairly simplistic math (what I think would be known as â5th grade mathâ that only slightly builds on knowing how to do long division and work with fractions), and I had no idea why we jumped backwards from the basic Algebra concepts we learned in 2nd grade. </p>
<p>I was extremely frustrated and the school couldnât do anything about it and I donât want future students to have to go through that. Hopefully we avoid the No Child Left Behind bills that essentially attempt to bring the front of the pack back in line with everyone else, and work on improving both situations (I donât know if weâre anywhere near ready for serious reform that would actually prevent and solve these problems, though).</p>
<p>Many posts on this thread confirm the gallup poll results of American parentsâ view of public education and their own schools. Below is an excerpt from a recent article ([Parents</a> rate own childâs school far better than Americans rate U.S. public schools](<a href=âAmericans' Views of Public Schools Still Far Worse Than Parents'â>Americans' Views of Public Schools Still Far Worse Than Parents')) on the gallup poll site:</p>
<p>âAmericans continue to believe their local schools are performing well, but that the nationâs schools are performing poorly. More than three-quarters of public school parents (77%) give their childâs school an âAâ or âB,â while 18% of all Americans grade the nationâs public schools that well.â</p>
<p>The sad truth is that for math education, even our best suburban schools (excluding science magnets) cannot compete with the schools in some asian countries. It is not even close.</p>
<p>The Chinese students were told that they were taking an important test that would affect the image of their country. Furthermore, Asian countries, especially China, like tests a lot.</p>
<p>In China, test score is the only ticket to the best college. In USA, we value ECs, leadership, volunteer work etc as much as test scores in college admission. we just have different criteria. If Chinese use our method for college admission, I do not think many Chinese will do the boring math and science.</p>
<p>cellardweller: a"large controlled study, really"? What are we supposed to make of that â that you smoke crack? I thought that went out in the 80âs.</p>
<p>screwitlah: What makes you think all the âwhite kidsâ are monolithic? The whites are on top, in the middle and at the bottom, as are the Asians, Hispanics and African-Americans.</p>