U.S. can't crack top 10 in student skills

Parents Forum
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<p>screwitlah:

</p>

<p>Generally speaking people who can’t hold conversions and resort to name calling and derogatory statements are uneducated people. That was the whole point to begin with and you have been proving me correct in my assessment with each of your posts.</p>

<p>That is why I like the US system of educating people on the whole instead of making them literate in one single aspect of the life. We don’t want to raise robots but humans. Who not only need to have knowledge but also be respectful of other humans. So in the sense we need to impart education.</p>

<p>I can rest my case.</p>

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<p>ParentOfIvyHope.</p>

<p>The PISA test is Maths, Science, and Reading.
Maybe you would consider a level of competency in these 3 fields as ‘mastery’.
I would consider it simply as a baseline necessity in a competitive market.</p>

<p>And as for PhD’s…
Some 30% of Doctoral students at the Ivy Leagues are already International Students…
International Undergrads account for over 10% of the intake and is due to continue to rise</p>

<p>If American students cannot compete in basic academic competencies such as Reading, Science, and Maths, compared to their International peers, then why will Top US universities be accepting ‘less than able’ US students in the future? </p>

<p>Affirmative action for US students perhaps?</p>

<p>…and as more countries with more affluent middle classes continue to keep sending their students to the US for college it will be the US students who will increasingly be beaten out in the competition for US college placements.</p>

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<p>screwitlah: At least read something before you spew. In 1978, Deng ideologically surrendered by admitting that their totalitarian form of command economy, which they imported from Europe and modified, was a failure. He introduced zones of economic liberty that would allow risk capital and some market freedoms. The economic gains were fueled by liberty, not in spite of it. The Chinese economy would flourish much more if political liberty were allowed, as well as more economic liberty. Have you ever asked yourself why so much Chinese economic and social power is among the diaspora? To achieve superpower status, China will need a lot more than a large and dynamic economy an 10 million soldiers: that will require the ability to project strategic power outside of Asia, socio-political and military, not merely economic power. I am not saying that they will not get there, but they have a long, long way to go. A vote in the Security Council and a dock in Panama will not cut it. They don’t even have the surface fleet or lift capablility to move their land army around their own country, much less enough to have strategic mass on another continent. How many immigrants (North Koreans don’t count) are fighting to get into China (legally or illegally)? They are more than a generation away.</p>

<p>And as far as their secondary education goes, their teenage boys do well in math and science, but how about their girls – oops sore spot, not allowed to have girls in China. How smart can you be at math when you can’t even figure out how to get one woman for each man? How about this for a math problem: How many political parties does it take to have more than one?</p>

<p>China is holding itself back. They have miles to go before they can even see my ass, much less kick it.</p>

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<p>“Generally speaking, people who mistake their own opinions for legitimate arguments are also uneducated people.” – screwitlah, post #268</p>

<p>“I personally don’t like the fact that an immature bully like China is going to become so powerful, but they will overtake America and this is a fact.” – srewitlah asserting opinion as fact, post #261</p>

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<p>First of all I am going to apologize to 80% of posters here that are legitimately adding constructive comments. This rant is aimed at those 20% that effectively makes the US look bad.
I am from Canada and my D had applied to 5 colleges in the States as well as many in Canada and while visiting the US ones 3 of them told her bluntly that they want international students because they raise the overall GPA of the college. In other words your colleges recognize that a lot of internationals do have higher grades than equivalent US students and that is one reason why they are accepting more internationals and of course the fact that we pay double or triple the tuition of in state students doesn’t hurt
glido-- your statement about sending men to the moon, don’t forget that a very large number of the flight engineers that sent the man to the moon were Canadian and moved to NASA when the US FORCED our at that time weak Prime Minister to cancel the Avro Air program in Canada because it was years ahead of what you had, Also why do you think the Canad arm is called that-- designed and made in Canada. My Nephew was one of the engineers and guess what, he got his University degree in Canada.<br>
Does the US have the best colleges/universities in the world, perhaps in your dreams, 15 or 20 years ago you did but not now. The problem is that the Big Brother Club is still out there who believe that a good education can only be had at certain high priced US colleges/universities. The States has so many small college that offer just as good of an education (the key word is education) as do we in Canada and many other places in the world but until the CLUB is gone they will not be as well recognized, whether I like it or not money talks. I know I sound hypocritical by still sending my D to the States for college but reality is that I am not stupid. I know that it still looks good to say you graduated from an American College whether it is Ivie or not. As any one of you would do I chose to help my D have a leg up in her future.<br>
I can tell you that my D for the first 2 semesters had 24 and 22 credit hours respectively and this semester she has had 25, she is also maintaining a 3.91 GPA, not bad for a student that has never taken an AP or IB class is it. I strongly believe that you have a good education system but that your short coming is that in HS your students know very little if anything about the world outside your borders, at the beginning of Nov. my D was wearing her poppie and was asked by a number of students what it was and why she was wearing it and was actually criticized because we honour the fallen of all countries as well as those who suffered through war and those who are fighting today. In a summer online American History course she took the general consensus (a lot of students were US military) was that the 2 world wars actually started about 2 years after we had already been fighting because that is when the US joined in. Really??? She reminded the teacher that before we were called Canada we were the only nation to have successfully attacked and burnt down the White House in Washington and by the way we won the war of 1812.
Sarcasm aside, I think you do have a good education system but it it is very self serving in the sense that if you don’t teach about the rest of the world then you are obviously better than the rest of the world.
You and I all know that if the US had been in the top 10 the gloating would have been unbearable to anyone else in the world or this whole topic would have never made it CC. I haven’t seen anyone rubbing this into the US face except Americans. For the 80 percent of you that you have made good arguments here I say thank you and well done. Unfortunately it is always the minority of asinine comments that get remembered and cause the riff. I probably should not have responded but when I see some out and out fallacies being stated as fact it is time to pipe in.</p>

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<p>

LOLOLOLOL. at least try to make it harder for me to make you look stupid, please?</p>

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<p>percussiondad, Thanks for your thoughtful reply and adding your experience/insight. Just a couple of qualifications/additions to your considered comments if you don’t mind. :)</p>

<p>There may indeed be some false assumptions of American superiority when it comes to higher education, but I think the perceptions, and the motivations, are a little more complex than that. :slight_smile: Internationals decide to be educated in the U.S. for a variety of reasons, many of those being economic and pragmatic. For example, if your goal is to reside permanently in the U.S. and preferably as soon after college/grad school as possible, it makes a lot of sense to situate yourself in your intended locale, even broadly. By the way, this is a parallel “problem” for many Americans, looking northward for an education. Trust me, in my social set not everyone considers Canada second class to the U.S. when it comes to higher ed. Further, Canada’s straightforward, more transparent approach to applications/admissions definitely appeals to lots of Americans. As one of many examples, we have a friend who got a top-notch secondary education here, but would have no part of the Ivy “rat-race” application frenzy, complete with spending a good half-year just developing application & essay content, not to mention college lists, travel to campuses, strategizing, and competing with others for distinct personal profiles. She said, You know what? I’m going to enjoy my senior year of high school. I’m filling out a two-page Canadian application and I’m done. She ended up gleefully happy at U of Toronto and never looked back. I don’t know where she is going to grad school; I think she may have chosen the U.S.</p>

<p>^And that’s the point. Her family, and her past social network, are here in the States. You have to make a decision at some point, unless you can manage bilocation, where will my professional life be?</p>

<p>So my point being that an awful lot of internationals are already thinking permanent residency when they consider the U.S. for higher ed. Naturally in some cases the family itself has already immigrated, so this is becoming/has become “home.” But in other cases it’s a future goal, and a realistic one for many. I don’t know if in every case in other countries, a storied degree is a virtual guarantee of a profession in that country. It certainly isn’t here. But on the other hand, there are dozens of alternate professional options for students who have been educated in the States, vs. (for example) options in non-western countries. You don’t get “one chance” at a future here. I have a sibling who, after years in business, discovered her true calling at age 47 and entered a professional program for that and is extremely fulfilled in this profession, due to accessibility to higher ed --not limited to tracking or age or test score cycles. Similarly, Americans change not just jobs but (increasingly so) professions, often, and even after an initial chosen one. In addiition, the cliimate for and culture of entrepreneurship is, if not “superior,” certainly inviting for anyone from any land with an independent nature and adventurous inclinations.</p>

<p>That is what immigrant families in my line of work (education) tell me: Employment options after a U.S. degree is what attracts them to choose a U.S. college. Second, the very variety of U.S. colleges: sizes, types, styles, flavor, programs – in sum, the accessibility of American higher education, both to natives and to foreigners. I don’t know if that’s “unique” (vs. Canada). I doubt it, since I am familiar with the variety in Canadian colleges and U’s. And I will contradict myself now and say that it’s the Canadians who have the “secret” on college + work with their Co-op colleges. I fail to understand why the U.S. has not discovered this yet. Either (as you say) there’s willful, smug blindness about offerings outside of the U.S., or it’s just a matter of habit. But I can’t think of a better time (now, with the U.S. economy in the shape it’s in), for U.S. colleges (with businesses) to adopt aggressively a co-op program. What’s been happening instead is that American students, having figured out how helpful job experience is as a head-start after that degree, are seeking out internships much more than they ever have. But they have to do a lot of work and often depend on a lot of luck in acquiring those. The applications for interim and post-graduation internships is exponentially more than American companies are offering. (My daughter had to seek one overseas.) A long time ago I saw this coming. It’s a win/win for business and academia (therefore for the economy as a whole) to form an alliance whereby trained students are guided toward the fitting next step. This way they don’t end up partly employed, unemployed, inappropriately employed, extending their schooling to avoid unemployment, returning to their parents in defeat, etc. We have very poor, inefficient (i.m.o.) immediate pathways from college (general baccalaureate) to work. Unless one is going the vocational route, and even that can be competitive now. In that regard, the U.S. is being extremely foolish in not studying Canada and applying lessons.</p>

<p>Just editing to add that we do have a very few co-op type colleges here, but that is a token gesture, i.m.o.</p>

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<p>screwitlah, glido,
(and anyone else who is harping on about a the supposed Pro-US vs Pro-Sino viewpoint).</p>

<p>This thread is about the PISA test results and the possible implications of those results.</p>

<p>China/Shanghai ranking first doesn’t matter.
The US ranking 17th, 14th and 25th DOES.</p>

<p>glido…why bother with comments about China?
Does rankings of 16th, 13th, and 24th strike you as acceptable?</p>

<p>…and why rise to screwitlah acting like a forum ■■■■■?..
screwitlah is probably 5 Mao anyway. :)</p>

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<p>epiphany-- thank you for your response and I agree whole heartedly with what you have stated. In my case our D does not necessarily plan on living in the States but has not ruled it out totally. She wants to bring her education home but as you said who knows where the future will be. That is why as I stated that we agreed to have her attend an American College. There are so many things that we like about her college over what she could have here but I will not bore anyone with that. My point was that it gives a leg up as Canadian Universities readily recognize an American Degree but it does not always work the other way. This way she will be able to go for her Masters in either country or abroad and not have to fight with admissions. The college she attends has given her a substantial financial incentive because otherwise we could never have afforded her to go since we cannot apply for FAFSA and Canadian Loans are very limited for cross border education. We are extremely proud of her for grades but also that she takes every opportunity to broaden some minds about Canada. The 2 funniest ones were someone asking her if we ate hot dogs and hamburgers in Canada or is it just deer and moose meat. The other was a few of her friends saying lets get away for the weekend and my D thinking OK a 2 or 3 hour drive when one of them said lets go to Vancouver for the day, no concept that it is a 4-5 hour flight. She also pointed out that if you take a Globe made in the US versus one made in some other country the size of Canada is different with respect to the US. Most do not know that Canada is the second largest (by size) country in the world with only Russia being bigger. These are the types of things that are frustrating because yes you are the largest military power and the largest economic power but you ( I am generalizing) know nothing about the world beyound your borders. After 911 every school in our district had a special memorial and the students all learnt every verse of the American anthem and the Canadian. They sang both at the memorial out of respect for those that died and suffered. Was that dome in the States? I would even venture to say that 75% of US students could not name all 10 Provinces, 3 Territories and their Capitals yet we are your largest trading partner. Have the US HS students been told the results of this Standardized testing, I know that my D former high school had an assembly yesterday and the report from Stats Can was read and explained to them. Also our HS guidance departments all have or will readily get the required info for any student thinking of going to the States but from what I can gather this is not the case south of the border. Thank you and I do apologize (hey that is a tradmark of being Canadian) if I in anyway insult someone as that is not my intention but I am giveng you an outsiders perspective</p>

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<p>I like you, LaContra.</p>

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<p>percussiondad,
No, you’re not insulting me, anyway. :slight_smile: And I don’t know what Canadian institutions and potential employers mean when they say or assume “best” (re: American higher ed). There may be some popular prejudice there, based on inadequate or dated comparisons, or narrow parameters. Keep in mind that again, from the aspect of students (as opposed to adult international opinion), a person attracted to our college system may be drawn by three of the features that define our country: individualism, educational opportunity, and economic opportunity. The flexibility produced by the union of those three is sometimes what non-natives mean when they describe our system as “best.” While you are understandably frustrated by how you see our historical and geographical myopia, not everyone passionately seeking our college system is looking at strictly academic comparisons. Not anyone I have met believes that even our most demanding schools are merely interchangeable with Oxford, Cambridge, and the London School of Economics. (for example). But if they wanted strictly a defined subject-major, they would have much less to choose from in our system anyway, and/or graduate school will be mandatory. Again, if they’re looking for flexibility (not just mastery of a single subject), they’re likely going to look at countries which offer that in a 4-year degree, and the country that offers that to a maximum level is arguably the USA. Possibly many other countries do, too, but if admissions to those colleges (on narrow measures), the cost of financing your education there, and the likelihood of the graduate then pursuing long-term employment there, make those options poor choices, they are more likely to choose the U.S. as more practical. Not superior academically, but more practical.</p>

<p>Indiividualism does not appeal to everyone, in or out of this country. Lots of people do prefer, and might prefer, a more defined path and predictable, structured trajectory to higher ed and beyond. Unfortunately, though, even among those who do, there are not enough places (often) in their own countries for those inclined to such structured outcomes. Again, that’s why they seek the US and call us “best.” They may understand that a job in the US is not “guaranteed,” but the education qualifying them to obtain that job may be far more guaranteed (and maybe even more affordable in some cases) than in their native country. Keep in mind that many internationals (not all, maybe not even most) do intend to, and do, pursue their professions in their native countries after a U.S. degree.</p>

<p>I think the reasons for the U.S. insularity you decry has both to do with deficiencies in American K-12 education (esp. beginning with the early '70’s, when goals/purposes began to change & dilute intellectual standards), and with (now previous) prosperity and economic dominance. But whether consciously or not, your points relate to a broader (off-topic) factor which has affected, and will continue to affect, our country’s willingness to accept uncomfortable comparisons. Not just with regard to education, but certainly starting there and going beyond, lack of peripheral vision is determinental to American achievement on many fronts, in an increasingly interconnected planet. (Points well taken.)</p>

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<p>I am not a pedagogue or education expert. From my experience, the USA focuses a lot on non-academics. Our HS and college stars are football players, whereas the schools I visited in Europe didn’t even offer HS sports (a few offered intermurals). In the USA, HS is a lot more “broad” based whereas in Europe it was more specific. For example, you had to choose between a science and a humanities HS diploma/Baccalaureate. </p>

<p>That isn’t to say 15 year olds in other countries don’t aspire to be sports stars and are mercilessly tracked, the “weak” being forced into vocational schools. There is a bigger separation in those countries between “academics” and “non-academics”. In America, students are told that academics success means to being a “leader”, or an “All-American” kid where sports, volunteership, and charisma are put on par with skill in an art or science.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is the one thing Americans need to work on in the educational system. Everyone in HS and in many in college is working to be a “leader” who is big on “wholesomeness” but low on skill in a relevant field (sciences, engineering, arts). The idea is that if you are a “leader”, you will be rewarded with a lucrative career in management. The problem is, we can’t be a nation of managers, because we will have no subordinates left. It’s time that Americans regain relevant skills.</p>

<p>A list of top college majors in the USA is telling, being dominated by business/administration, education, nursing, social sciences, and psychology. What will be the economic driving force of a nation of business administrators, nurses, historians, and psychologists?</p>

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<p>Well, remember that ‘even’ technical and vocational high schools in Europe (for example) are very tough on math skills and fundamental literacy.</p>

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<p>Percussiondad: I do not disagree with you re Canada. Canada rocks. that surely does not mean that hte USA produces no high school students with gpa’'s comparable to international students.</p>

<p>LaContra: of course being US ranking of 14th, 17th and 25th is not acceptable. I do not accept it. As I have posted. The study is flawed. One cannot compare an apple with a basket of fruits and veggies. there are thousands of school districts in the USA. The vast majority of them were not tested. They are not related to each other. One doing well on a survey has no relationship at all to any other. Some schools are great. others suck. Some students are among the top in the world. Others suck. Some families value education and are supportive. Others suck. there are plenty in the middle. The same if one does poorly. There is no American educational system. That is a fiction. Tens of thousands of the most prepared high school graduates entering colleges come from the USA. Is it the proposition of the USA bashers that these students have succeeded in spite of living and studying in the usa? Where is the data that shows that? The conclusions drawn by some from the PISA survey are garbage and do not stand up tpo scrutiny.</p>

<p>srewitlah: It was my intent to make you LOL That you could not see that makes me LOL.</p>

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<p>In Iraq, my dad took differential equations in 10th grade, and that was considered average.
I guess that explains it.</p>

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<p>glido</p>

<p>The grounds upon which you consider the study flawed do not stand up to scrutiny. </p>

<p>This misapprehension that somehow other OECD countries do not have their share of minorities, migrants, students who do not speak the national language at home, slacker students, disinterested parents, poor teachers, market distorting trade unions, poverty issues, free education for all children (permanent resident or not), or decentralised education administration is at best simply incorrect at worst wilfully ignorant.</p>

<p>Your blas</p>

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<p>Americans, in general, are lazy…I’ll be honest. No matter how diverse the country is, there are some people who strive for the self-actualization and others who work just enough to survive.</p>

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<p>Only informed Americans understand that statement. The flaws of the no-system are obvious, while the attractiveness of it is clear - freedom.</p>

<p>Many or most students are poor test scorers, yet a few of them grow up to lead the world, in the past, today, and hopefully tomorrow. Need some examples? Think Microsoft/Apple, Google, and Facebook. There are smart people somewhere else that can copy the ideas and technologies. Hopefully they’ll come up with something original and they will/should.</p>

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<p>I do not know very much about the Amercian education system or the thousand of systems as some are saying:) but I know that in Ontario Canada we have Provincial standardized testing for math, reading and science in Grade 3 ,6 and 9. In order to graduate from HS you have to pass the standardized literacy test and that is based on about a grade 9 reading level which is a slight bit higher than the average newspaper. As I said earlier I know that my D s HS had an full school assembly and explained the results of the PISA / OECD test. Our schools do not segregate students by race, colour, socio-economic standing. 80% of our students with LD are in mainstream education. We do have the private schools but they must also pass the same standardized tests and have no special standing in our higher education system. Even those that are home schooled fall into the same catagory as Private school. Funding per student is the same for everyone. Students with LD do get a higher funding factor to help the schools where needed. We are far from perfect in this respect but we do try. You have some extremely outstanding students so your system(s) is excellent somewhere for some. In Canada there very few if any full ride scholarships, sports are not as big as in the States and therefore our students know that academics is the only real way into a full university ed. I do have a friend whose son has received a full ride to play hockey in the States. That is fantastic since the costs to attend is $65K a year. He has no intention of making a career of hockey but hey it will pay for his BA so why not. We do not have things like Cheerleader scholarships, volunteer scholarship etc. Maybe part of the difference is that at least in Canada we do not have the availability of these types of scholarships so most students in hs know that to get ahead and into a good University it is the grades that count. I fail to understand the excuses that are continuously being made by some posters. As I said earlier you make it sound like the world is out to make you look bad but in all honesty SOME OF YOU dont need our help, you live up to the unfortunate streotype that Americans are arrogant self serving know it alls. I truly feel sorry for those of you that cant get past the fact that some of your students need help starting at home, in school or the world in general. Putting on the blinders will do nothing but make your standing even worse in the future. I hope Canada is at least able to maintain were it is in the future but who knows, histortically what happens socially in the States happens in Canada about 7 years later.</p>

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<p>Interesting, because Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Page, etc were, by all accounts, great in school. Please note that Bill Gates dropping out of Harvard is a tired cliche that does not in any way begin to question his intelligence and test-taking abilities, because he 1) got into Harvard 2) with a near perfect SAT score. By and large, outside of Hollywood there’s no mysterious breed of “smartness” that somehow allows people to make big money but yet be lousy at school. They can own your ass in school if they tried. Please quit your delusions. Next!</p>