<p>From the 29 June 2014 NYT:</p>
<p>U.S. college grad literacy and math skills lag considerably behind many other countries. I haven't dug through the methodology but I suspect that this may be because of including 100s of U.S. lower-quality directionals, parochial colleges, and CCs that do not exist in many other countries.</p>
<p>Here is the actual report, all 466 pages!</p>
<p>There’s gigantic diversity in the US higher education system. Both a Harvard grad and grad of a for-profit diploma mill are “college grads”. We probably don’t have the minimum standards that other countries have, but few countries can match the quality of research at our top research universities or individualized yet broad instruction of our LACs.</p>
<p>Also, the parochials tend to be pretty good at actual instruction. I don’t know why you’re putting them down.</p>
<p>I have a few issues with this article. One thing I would like to see is how accessible a college education is to the people within a given country. In the U.S., higher education is extremely accessible. Grants are available for those with demonstrable financial need, and there are tons of colleges and universities across the country. In other countries, higher education may only be available to the very best of students, which may boost the averages. As a result, the countries may score better on this test. But it might be harder (if not impossible) for those in the bottom quartile of families within those countries to achieve the same upward mobility that they’re capable of in the U.S.</p>
<p>One of my main issues is the relevancy of a global comparison. I mean, realistically, how many of us are competing for jobs that are going to be on a global scale? I’d imagine it’s a small minority of people. Even with foreigners who come to the U.S. for education, most likely aren’t capable of getting working visas, meaning we don’t compete with them. How relevant is it to my life, really, what the average Belgium or Austrian grad scores on this test?</p>
<p>Also, doesn’t it follow from the fact that Americans score below average on K-12 tests that they’d score similarly poorly on in those tests during / after college? I mean, do we really expect colleges to take these below-average scoring students and suddenly turn them into well rounded and high scoring students? Sure, it would be amazing if colleges did that. But that sounds like a pretty unrealistic expectation to me.</p>
<p>@Beyphy:
Don’t conflate college education with upward mobility. Upward mobility in the US is actually pretty bad, despite having one of the lagest percentages of college-educated people.</p>
<p>If you look at countries like Germany or Switzerland, you’ll see that most people do not enter college. Instead they do an apprenticeship to learn a trade (in Germany, that included computer programming, and in Switzerland, that includes banking). That vocational training actually is a better path to the middle class (and above) than most majors in the US, IMO. I have no doubt that kids who go through an apprenticeship in Germany learn more useful skills than those who study useless subjects at for-profit degree mills in the US.</p>
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<p>And don’t confuse a study that thinks being able to move from the bottom quintile to the top quintile as equal to “upward mobility”. When you come right down to it, comparing mobility between quintiles is really a pretty silly way to measure anything, since it’s a zero-sum game. For every person that moves up, someone has to move down. For every winner, there has to be a loser. Exactly what does that measure?</p>
<p>I too would question this study. Perhaps a better measure would be by consumer demand - how many kids apply to US colleges vs. applying to other countries? If our schools aren’t that good, why are kids all over the world beating down the doors to get in? I agree that the lower end of American schools may not be that good, but how many of those kids would even be going to college in other countries? (And I happen to like the German system better, with some big reservations about how hard it is to get out of your assigned track.)</p>
<p>As for master’s and other grad degrees, considering a huge number of those degrees are masters in teaching, not exactly the brightest bulbs in the grad school world, again, I’d question everything about this study, or at least any conclusions you could draw from All master’s degrees are not created equal, and if you start from that presumption, any conclusion you draw are going to be flawed. Same with engineering degrees, where China supposedly graduates tons more "engineers than the US, but they aren’t the same thing.</p>
<p>Well, even if you look at absolute rather than relative gains, Americans are still doing pretty badly. If you ask “are you doing worse than or the same as 20 years ago”, a bigger percentage of Americans would answer “yes” than in other developed countries. Most of the gains over the past 2-3 decades have been concentrated in the top 10%, and most of those are at the very top (income growth has been lognormal).</p>
<p>A survey of where people THINK they are vs. a survey of hard data will produce two different results. The past always looks better than it really was. Oddly enough, I SEEMED to have a lot more disposable income 20 years ago, before the wife and two kids, vs. now, although as a family, we earn 4 to 5x what we did then. And cash income vs. total (including non-cash) income are two different things. Benefits have a cash value (that is not taxed), as anyone who has no income during vacations or has to buy their own healthcare will attest to.</p>
<p>Second, I have family members who have tried living in Europe, where it is supposedly more equal and as Americans they didn’t even have to pay European tax rates. It sucked compared to the US because everything was so expensive, even with the tax break. You can live a lot better here on the same income. I really don’t care that some people get paid $10 million/year for playing a sport or acting. Although getting paid $225K per speech for being a former Secretary of State does seem outlandish…</p>
<p>But we’re hijacking this thread…</p>
<p>We have the best GRADUATE schools in the world. Undergrad, on the other hand…</p>
<p>I just went to my nieces’s wedding (a recent college grad from flagship state U) and listened to her sorority sisters laud her at the rehearsal dinner. One of the gals stood up and actually prefaced her speech w, “hi, I’m ****, and I date the kicker <football>…” I know my shoe size is bigger than the combined IQs of those sorority sisters. </football></p>
<p>Yes, there’s plenty wrong w undergraduate education in the U.S.</p>