<p>ST. ANDREWS, Scotland Isobel Oliphant felt she was making an offbeat choice when she graduated from Fox Lane High School in Bedford, N.Y., and enrolled at the ancient university in this quiet coastal town of stone ruins and verdant golf courses.</p>
<p>I thought I was being original, said Ms. Oliphant, now in her third year at the University of St. Andrews. But my high school class president came here, too. And when I got here, it was all Hi, Im from Massachusetts, Hi, Im from New York. </p>
<p>St. Andrews has 1,230 Americans among its 7,200 students this year, compared with fewer than 200 a decade ago....</p>
<p>About 30 of those 1230 Americans at St. Andrew's are my friends or people I know through connections. According to their experience, the atmosphere at St. Andrew's is vastly different from what we could normally encounter in American Ivies. Lost of those Americans tend to come from rich families who went to prep schools, you know those wealthy New Yorkers or prep school kids from greater Boston Area who would have easier access to studying abroad for 4 years. I also hear that people love to drink and go to bars every night, because there is nothing else to do. Admittedly, St. Andrew's IS less selective than many of America's best colleges. My friends who got rejected from UMichigan rolling, NYU, Bates all got in there. Some of them decided to attend, because it's supposedly "prestigious" and abroad, so there's no embarssment for not going to great American schools. For that reason, as a senior, I've always somewhat considered St. Andrew's University as a safety, you know, somewhere I would go if I were to get rejected from my top American choices. </p>
<p>Oh, anther personal anecdote. My SAT tutor whom I worked with over the summer is there right now as a graduate student. He went to Harvard for undergrad. He's a bartender at one of the bars that undergraduates love to go. He says most of the undergraduates at St. Andrew's are snobby, rich, and have no concern about studying or future. Just there on daddy's money.... to party.</p>
<p>I'd love to go abroad, but living in the UK would just be SO expensive. I applied to two schools overseas (in Switzerland and Germany), but it's more of an impossible dream than me actually thinking I can afford to go live in Switzerland for four years (but who knows if you don't apply, right?). I've got a friend who goes to the University of Edinburgh, and he seems to love it, and another friend who wants to go to McGill or Toronto next year, and that's in a public school in North Carolina, so I can definitey see how there would be big increases in Americans going abroad from other places. This was a really interesting article.</p>
<p>well well i go to a school that sends 30-40% of its students to oxford/cambridge (referred to as oxbridge) so i might know.
snobby is perhaps the wrong word. oxbridge isn't the funnest place you could go to school, oxford is a town and cambridge a smaller one, so if you're just looking to party you'd go to Leeds or Edinburgh or a London university. People at oxbridge come from all walks of life and tend to not be socially snobbish as far as I know....at least the 30-40% of my grade aren't!
the kind of snobbery you're more likely to run into is what i call "intellectual snobbery". Everyone who goes is super dedicated to their subject (because you apply to study only one subject for the whole three years) and has lots of deep knowledge about it. A lot see learning as the most important thing, much more so than earning money for example. They're more likely to look down on you for being shallow than for having a different accent. That said, most oxbridge students are very friendly and accepting.</p>
<p>I feel I should warn you that its almost impossible to get into oxbridge from an American high school, the systems are completely incompatible.</p>
<p>Well Oxford and Cambridge each take more than half of their students from state-sponsored schools (ie: public schools in America), about 60%, and 40% from "public" (American: private/independent/boarding and day schools) so about the same breakdown as at Ivy League and other top private institutions in the US. The difference is that Oxbridge are "public universities" and state-funded so quite cheap for UK students compared to top US schools, but for overseas students there is NO financial aid so only Americans with wealthier families could attend. </p>
<p>So if you are an American applying to Oxbridge you must be able to pay full freight. it's only 3 years, so cheaper than full freight at an Ivy League school, but you have to be able to pay full tuition and therefore of the Americans at Oxbridge, most are wealthier/from independent schools. I wouldn't say snobs, though. In addition, in order to get into Oxbridge you must sit their examinations and know exactly WHAT you want to study and then that's all you study, and their interviews are intense, so most American public schools don't really prepare you for that.
I am applying this year to oxford (you have to pick one of the two) and my interview was basically a tutor firing questions at me and then we had a discussion about applied economic theory (I've applied for PPE) and at the end he said I had a decent chance for an American, but you had to have minimum 3-4 AP grades of 4-5 after your junior year so unless you took 3-4 APs soph/jr year you wouldn't have what they want. Also you needed minimum 1400/2100 SATs and 720 in 3 subject tests. and they said those were minimums, they really wanted to see higher. they don't care about your high school grades at all, they don't really trust most American high schools no matter how good they are, they want exam grades.</p>
<p>OK, guys, what I meant by "snobby" was directed towards St. Andrew's. Not Oxbridge.
I know like only one person who attends Cambridge university, so I wouldn't know, and even then, I understand Oxford and Cambridge are completely different universities than St. Andrew's or University of Edinburugh... I hear that Oxbridge admission is completely based on academic unlike American colleges who care about ECs, Comm. Service, etc..... Also, I hear that interviews are extremely freaking important.</p>
<p>When I went to study at Oxford University for the summer, however, I noticed that Oxford and Cambridge are comprised of many smaller colleges within. The professor there said that nobody who actually attends Oxbridge would say "hey I'm a student at Oxford." Instead, he would say "I go to Queens College... or Linacre College..." like identify himself as his separate college. Apparently, some are much easier to get into than others.. So not all Oxford has the same calibre of education, I guess?</p>
<p>All universities in the UK judge mainly on academics. ECs are no more than a couple of lines in your personal statement usually.
Oxbridge colleges are basically all the same difficulty to get in to. With the massive number of applications every single college gets, they're under no obligation to pick subpar students just to fill up places. They also have "pool" systems where applicants who are worth an offer but who there isn't a place for at the college they applied for can be chosen by other colleges over those who applied directly.</p>
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If you're looking to major in International Relations or International Business, might I suggest Richmond - The American International University in London? Unlike St. Andrews, which is perched on a scenic, but isolated, spot on the Scottish coast, Richmond is located in a world-class capital city. In fact, the December issue of Foreign Policy magazine published a survey of the world's 60 most global cities which ranked London #1 as the best city to get a degree, and also #1 as the best city to get some culture. For those U.S. students wanting the familiarity of an American style 4-year degree program, Richmond might be just your ticket. A bonus feature with Richmond is that its dual-accreditation in both the US and the UK means that you graduate with two degrees for the price of one. And you get to do this surrounded by peers that make up a genuinely international student body. Richmond's students from around the world, percentage per region, are as follows: 30% North America and Caribbean, 18% Middle East, 15% Africa, 15% Europe, 13% Asia, 6% UK, 3% South America.
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<p>My cousin went to this school and if anyone is looking for true intellectual stimulation, then forget about this university.. Its a party school with very lax standards. I hung out with quite a few Richmond kids this summer oncampus as well as offcampus and while they were very cool, I doubt they were being academically challenged or even wanted to be challenged. They were just rich kids who were out to have fun ( and thre's nothing wrong with that unless you want a good academic experience ).. Think twice before going here if you want to be in a relatively serious learning environment.</p>
<p>starbucks08--i really know very little about European universities, so I was just asking if oxbridge is considered as "snobby" as places like St. Andrews, for example, which is what you were talking about--and from what people have responded it seems like the answer is no! i'm a junior who's just starting to look into colleges and i have to say that the intellectual "snobbery" someone was talking about actually really appeals to me haha...it just seems like the admissions process at least for oxbridge is less of a mind game than here in the states and i would love to intensely concentrate on something to do with international affairs for 3 years:) thanks for your guys' help!</p>
<p>This article was very interesting for me to see, since I am a first year American student at the University of St Andrews. After about two months here I absolutely love everything about it. The town isn't big, but it has everything you could want, as well as a great atmosphere. It is a beautiful place with lots of history.</p>
<p>I am studying International Relations, Economics and Social Anthropology this semester. I find St Andrews' courses interesting and academically stimulating. I guess there is some validity in the criticism that the standards are lax (to get past first year all you have to do is pass all your classes), but it really depends on how hard you want to work and what subjects you take. International Relations, for example, is very competitive and hard work is required in order to do well. I find that the main difference is that you have to be very self-sufficient. There is no one telling you when or what you need to read, no one reminding you to write your essays or go to lectures. As first years we do have a lot of free time which people mainly use for partying or joining the some of the many societies here.</p>
<p>Because the drinking age here is 18, alcohol consumption is more out in the open, but from what I've heard from my friends at American colleges it's definitely not more excessive. The difference is that you can go out to the pub for a couple of drinks with your friends instead of buying beer with a fake ID and chugging it in your dorm room through a funnel. That said, though, some people do take drinking to the extreme, but that's the case anywhere.</p>
<p>One of the best things about studying in a non-US university is the variety of places people are from. There ARE plenty of Americans (about 20% including JYAs and JSAs), but I also have friends from the UK, Germany, Spain, France, China and Bulgaria.</p>
<p>When I was applying to college I decided on Scotland instead of England because of the relative flexibility in the system. In England people have to specialize right away and can only study one subject, but at St Andrews we get the first two years to sample pretty much whatever we want, and it is very common to change majors within that time. Also, in Scotland students attend university for four years compared with three in England.</p>
<p>I would love to get my degree from a foreign university. But I don't think I have the money, since many US universities are out of reach for me. I'll probably study abroad, but it's just not the same. Besides the money, the UK and Canada are sooooo cold. My fingers and toes are about ready to fall off now in Ohio, so I wouldn't do well at McGill or St. Andrews.</p>
<p>Actually, I would be more impressed with students who get their degrees from foreign universities where the language of instruction is different from the student's native language. That shows a lot more courage and ambition. But it is still very admirable (though unrealistic for many students) to obtain a degree from a foreign university.</p>
<p>Was wondering... how would either of the IR programs at St. Andrews or Richard compare to the top IR programs in the US? Would job placement be difficult with a foreign degree?</p>
<p>I think that yes some American students go abroad to get their degrees, but by no means is it "flocking" to go to other countries. Only a few actually think of going to other countries. The article is misleading. When you are young adult, it's hard to handle being in college and being in a foreign country.</p>
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<p>how would either of the IR programs at St. Andrews or Richard compare to the top IR >>programs in the US? Would job placement be difficult with a foreign degree?</p>
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<p>I think these are the key questions. The article shares what the addition of US students does for the foreign schools (MONEY) but not much about what the students get from the experience other than the living abroad in a different culture part. It even mentions the lack of global job recruiting at St. Andrews. I suppose it would be ok if you were planning grad school? Even working in the UK is not an option due to visa restrictions - I think they allow UK educated foreigners to work up to 2 years in the UK?</p>
<p>Editing to add that I think this trend is similar to the "buy my kid an internship" program that I have seen in foreign countries. Companies pay a local wage for the internship which is hardly anything and the student pays the flight, apartment rental and living expenses and has minimal duties at the company but gets to put it on their resume as a foreign work experience.</p>
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<p>When I went to study at Oxford University for the summer, however, I noticed that Oxford and Cambridge are comprised of many smaller colleges within. The professor there said that nobody who actually attends Oxbridge would say "hey I'm a student at Oxford." Instead, he would say "I go to Queens College... or Linacre College..." like identify himself as his separate college. Apparently, some are much easier to get into than others.. So not all Oxford has the same calibre of education, I guess?<<</p>
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<p>Wrong. At least about the some being much easier to get in to part. The standards are fairly consistent among all colleges thanks to pooling. If one college receives all sub-par applicants then they can draw students who were highly qualified and pooled by a college who didn't have room for them. In addition, students from all colleges attend the same lectures and take the same exams. Accommodation and supervisions/tutorials are what vary..</p>
<p>If you are considering St. Andrews or any other university in the UK, be aware of the vast difference in tuition charged to EU students vs non-EU students. I am an American living and working in England; my wife is English and hence our children have dual citizenship. My daughter could have gone to St. Andrews and paid the EU tuition (£1,775/year) vs the non-EU cost (£11,350/year). So where did she end up? Claremont, CA! Oh well, at least she's enjoying the sunshine.</p>