UChicago Apps up 16.12% for Class of 2016

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>Phuriku:</p>

<p>Wait - am I missing something? If you look at current acceptance rates, open-market yield, etc., Duke, Penn, and Chicago seem to be pretty closely clustered peers. Are there some statistics I’m missing that dispute this?</p>

<p>From what I can see, this year, these 3 schools will all have acceptance rates in roughly the 11-14% range, the yield for all of these schools (discounting Penn’s big use of ED) will probably be roughly comparable, and the stats of the incoming classes will be quite similar.</p>

<p>I agree that Chicago has “catching up” to do (but I use this phrase more in terms of catching up to Columbia, Brown, etc. - the next band up), but I imagine it has made up most of the ground vis a vis Penn and Duke quite quickly. If you look at Penn’s College of Arts & Sciences (the closest comparator to Chicago’s College), I’d imagine all of the statistics are quite similar.</p>

<p>Again, am I missing something here? I anticipate that, in the next 5 years or so, Chicago will just further solidify its place in the rough “band” with Duke, UPenn, etc. I don’t expect any of these schools to “move up” and approach the selectivity of Columbia, Stanford, etc. </p>

<p>Maybe I am missing something here, and there are some stats out there that point to a current wider gulf of difference between Chicago, Penn, and Duke? Chicago might be quite new to being on par with these two schools (it’s only solidified it’s position in the past couple of years), but after being ranked in the same ball park as these schools for ~5 years, having comparable admissions statistics for the past ~3 years, this year tying Penn in the US News “HS Counselor” ranking, and gaining a lot of cache for unexpected reasons (e.g. an uptick in the general “politics scene” post-Obama for UChicago), I’m not sure much difference remains.</p>

<p>So, Phuriku, given all the stats and trends, I guess I’m curious to know where you’re seeing the gap between these schools. Why is Chicago being seen as “below” Penn or Duke now? These schools - especially of late - seem more to be different schools on equal footing. One may be more popular than another at a given time, but they’re seen as roughly equivalent.</p>

<p>Again, maybe I’m missing something here. If you go back and look at, say, Duke or Chicago threads, especially recent posts seem to indicate that the schools are comparable, but different - not that one is seen as “below” the other.</p>

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<p>I think you would still be hard-pressed to say that Chicago is equal to or ahead of Penn or Duke in the popular mentality. It’s not about admissions rate, necessarily. (As you’ve said yourself, admissions rate is only useful inasmuch as it helps the reputation of a school. It’s a tool, not an end in itself.)</p>

<p>My point is that Chicago still lags behind Penn and Duke in the popular mindset, as well as within high schoolers’ views of selectivity. Remember, Chicago just emerged as a selective school in the past 2-3 years; just 4 years ago, many considered it a safety school (which seems absolutely ridiculous at this point in time). Its reputation has yet to fully sink in, and it still has ground to make up. (If you want evidence of this, there’s a thread around here on lay prestige that you might want to look up.) I think substantial progress will be made in the next 4-5 years as Chicago solidifies its reputation in the popular mindset.</p>

<p>You’re right in that Chicago, Duke, and Penn are in the same ballpark statistically. My point is that as Chicago solidifies its reputation, its statistics (yield, apps) are going to further improve, bringing it to the admissions level of Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, et al. Duke and Penn have already solidified their reputations and have little ground left to cover. For Chicago, there’s still plenty of reputational and statistical upside.</p>

<p>Also, note that this is the first year that Chicago was ranked in the top 5 by US News. Since many international applicants take US News as divine, would it really surprise anyone if Chicago’s yield increased to the 45% mark this year? So why couldn’t it increase to 50% over the next 5 years?</p>

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<p>Phuriku:</p>

<p>I think “popular mentality” is pretty hard to define. What do you mean by this? Nationally speaking, Duke probably leads by a large margin on this, and UChicago and UPenn are not going to catch up at any point soon. If you read either the Chicago Maroon or the Daily Pennsylvanian, you’ll note that both Chicago and Penn have problems relating to “spreading the word” about the respective schools. Maybe I’m mistaken, but in terms of the nationwide “popular mentality” - is it even close between these three schools? Duke would seem to be ahead by a long shot. </p>

<p>Where I’m from (a more suburban area near a smaller city), no one knows about UChicago and UPenn, but everyone knows about Duke. I imagine that’s true for large swaths of the country. </p>

<p>To take the comparison between UChicago and Penn a bit farther, you argued that Chicago’s reputation is still solidifying, and will take a little more time to settle in with people. I’m unclear about why this will be - Chicago has been a “top ten” school for the better part of a decade now, and I’m not sure if interest in, say, Penn varied that significantly if Penn was 4 or 7 in the rankings. </p>

<p>To keep that analogy going, I don’t know if Penn’s made meaningful strides in catching up to Harvard, Columbia, etc., even though its been ranked quite competitively for a decade now. Why would Chicago be different, and not level off to a point where it still lags behind Harvard, Columbia, etc.?</p>

<p>The speculation regarding how far Chicago will “rise” seems quite interesting to me, and perhaps a bit overly optimistic. Phuriku, as you say, you think Chicago is seen “below” Duke and Penn right now, although you say Chicago should pass these schools soon and compete on more equal footing with Columbia, Brown, etc. in the span of ~5 years or so. It seems as if you are underselling Chicago a bit now, and being quite optimistic in where it will go in 5 years. </p>

<p>Given that Penn and Duke have been ranked higher than Columbia and Brown for a decade now, and still have not closed that gap, I’m unclear why you predict Chicago will.</p>

<p>I think it’s great that UChicago will continue to be ranked highly, and I hope that more people (including you) see the “popular view” of chicago being equal but different to a whole range of schools, rather than “below” these schools. Whether UChicago can go toe-to-toe with the very tippy top schools in admissions, though, is another proposition entirely.</p>

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<p>(I do think UChicago needs to concentrate on solidifying it’s position in the city of Chicago more firmly - maybe open up a flashy university center on michigan ave - not off to the side like the Gleacher Center, and concentrate on being known more as a top dog in the city. All other schools enjoy some home field advantage, and UChicago needs to concentrate on this. Maybe the new flashy politics center will help.)</p>

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<p>Well, I guess I should be more clear about terms. For “popular mentality,” I’m being necessarily vague here, although I’m mostly talking about prospective applicants, mainly those in the top 10% academically. Perhaps Chicago slightly outperforms Duke and Penn reputation-wise among the top 1%, but I still feel that Chicago is seen as slightly hierarchically lower than Duke/Penn in the 2nd-10th percentiles. I think it’ll take some time for the rankings and the improved marketing to make a lasting impact on that demographic, which will improve Chicago’s yield and applicant pool.</p>

<p>Now, although I see Chicago catching up to Columbia, Brown, et al. STATISTICALLY in the next 5 years, I don’t think it’ll catch up REPUTATION-WISE to those schools within the next 5 years within what I have defined as the “popular mentality.” Rather, I think that in that demographic, Chicago will be seen as on par with or slightly superior to Duke/Penn in 5 years, whereas it is presently lagging. So I don’t think I am over-estimating Chicago’s progress over the next 5 years. Statistics and rankings take time to produce reputational impact, after all.</p>

<p>Now, don’t over-read my comments too much. I’m only talking about what I think is happening statistically and reputation-wise with these schools. Personally, I prefer Chicago to both Duke or Penn, but then again, I emphasize academics and rigor over pre-professionalism (though I encourage Chicago to take strides on the latter). I too would like to see Chicago on par with Duke/Penn in the popular mentality, and I think it deserves to be; I just think it takes more than 4 years to jump from an Ivy League backup school to being seen as on-par with a dominant Ivy League university and a university that has ensured a regional reputational dominance for the past century.</p>

<p>(And yeah, I agree with you about the university solidifying its place in the city. Sadly, it gets nowhere near the media visibility that it should, and it’s almost like it’s considered as an entity separate from the city. No doubt, this has foundations in the city’s position on the South Side, but it would be nice if the University could use some of its $6B endowment to enhance its image within the city via a more visible campus building on Michigan Ave., etc. I think it will pretty soon, though.)</p>

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<p>I am one of those who believe U Chicago has a significant headroom for future growth beyond what U Penn, Duke, or whatever U Chicago peer schools had a few years ago when they started on a mission to up their visibility.</p>

<p>U Chicago was not only under-marketed among the target population of bright HS school kids and important decision makers in their ecosystem (guidance counselors, parents, etc), it was indeed a bit like an academic cloister. Purity over real work engagement. Hence, repeated talks about how such and such department at U Chicago are theoretically oriented - good for a pursuit of an academic career but not sure about its potency as a launch pad for real world career. </p>

<p>We are witnessing more moves on the part of U Chicago to get out of its cloister. It is now joining the “secular” world, metaphorically speaking.</p>

<p>A recent announcement from Axelrod about creating Institute of Politics, and bringing in his power network to U Chicago is one of the indications that we have seen lately. </p>

<p>I believe comparable moves like this on multiple fronts will broaden U Chicago’s appeal and provide a platform for further growth.</p>

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<p>Phuriku:</p>

<p>Thanks for defining the your “popular mentality” group. Still, I have no way of knowing whether it’s true that the the 2-10th % kids don’t value Chicago as much as the 1% kids. Who knows what conclusions we can reach about this?</p>

<p>Also, thanks for clarifying what you mean about Chicago “catching up” to Columbia, Brown, etc., and specifying that you meant statistically rather than reputation-wise. Certainly, statistically, that may be possible. Wash U or Vanderbilt might also crack single digit acceptance rates within 5 years or so. </p>

<p>For the larger concept of “reputation-wise,” I think all schools have been helped by the recent premium placed on being a “top” university, but the overall hierarchy has remained remarkably similar. So, for decades, Penn was seen as a “bottom” ivy league school (which is ridiculous, btw - it’s a wonderful school), and Duke was as a regional “backup” school. Then, primarily in the 90s, both schools began initiatives to change that, and their reputations started changing. This coincided with the top school craze, and both schools benefitted.</p>

<p>At the same time, probably in terms of “popular mindset” and in terms of hard numbers, these two schools still trail Columbia, Stanford, etc. - just as they ALWAYS have. The statistics and reputation gap may have narrowed, but the general hierarchy remains.</p>

<p>I think Chicago will follow a similar path, but I also don’t think it’s currently that far off from these other two schools in the “popular mindset” you define. (In terms of the national popular mindset, as I’ve said, I think Duke is ahead of most schools by a long shot.)</p>

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<p>OK, I actually went through and calculated the admit rate for many schools based on the number of applications received this year and assumed they accepted the same number of students as last year. UChicago’s admit rate could be lower if they accept fewer students because of higher yield rate and the fact that last year’s class was too large.</p>

<p>Class of 2016 Acceptance Rates (guesses)
5.5% – Julliard
6.4 ---- Harvard (2188 / 34285)
6.7 ---- Stanford (2436 / 36744)
7.2 ---- Cooper Union
7.3 ---- Yale (2109 / 28870)
7.6 ---- Columbia (2419 / 31818)
8.4 ---- Princeton
8.7 ---- Brown
9.0 ---- Dartmouth (2100 / 23052)
9.5 ---- MIT (1715 / 18084)
11.9 — Duke (3739 / 31500)
12.0 — Cal Tech
12.6 — Univ. of Penn (3935 / 31127)
13.6 — UChicago (3446 / 25271)
13.9 — Claremont McKenna
14.0 — Pomona
15.1 — Swarthmore
15.4 — WUSTL
15.5 — Vanderbilt
15.6 — Bowdoin
17.0 — Washington & Lee
17.3 — Cornell (6534 / 37673)
17.3 — Georgetown (3468 / 20050)
17.3 — Williams
17.4 — Northwestern (5575 / 31991)
18.3 — Middlebury</p>

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<p>As for reputation, there are several categories to consider: 1) general public, 2) college applicants, especially top applicants, 3) academics such as university professors and other smart people. Clearly, UChicago’s reputation is best in the latter category and growing in the second.
I have to laugh when people talk about prestige of any school in the opinion of the public, however. When Gallup does surveys and asks people to name what school ranks top 1 or 2 in the nation, Harvard is only named 25% of the time. 75% of the time people don’t mention it. If they asked people to only name the number one school (instead of top two) Harvard would be mentioned even less. Often the public names their favorite football school or state university or an assortment of all the other top schools.</p>

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<p>Also, because of the law school and business school, UChicago is very well known with corporate recruiters. UChicago Law places a higher percentage of its graduates at the top 250 law firms than any other law school in the country. And, in the Business Week ranking of business schools, corporate recruiters name UChicago Booth #1. Ahead of Harvard and Stanford in both categories. So ‘reputation’ depends very much on who you ask.</p>

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<p>12.6 — Univ. of Penn (3935 / 31127)
13.6 — UChicago (3446 / 25271)</p>

<p>The above admit rates don’t mean much since Penn needs 2400 students while Chicago is in the range of 1400. So yield is what is more important here. At 63% yield, Penn is admitting a lot fewer students. For Chicago to catch up, they need to be in 2500 admit range.</p>

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<p>If you wanted to determine what school had the best physics department, would you do a survey of people walking down the street or ask physics professors? If you wanted to find the best cancer doctor, would you ask people walking down the street or ask cancer specialists?</p>

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<p>I think UChicago’s lack of an engineering school (for now) will limit the size of its applicant pool. My prediction is that UChicago’s applicant pool will peak in 2013 or 2014 at around 28,000 to 30,000 applicants.</p>

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<p>@Divine comedy
I agree 30,000 is in the future. With that approx. scenario (and a class size of 1,350):</p>

<p>If UChicago had 30,000 applicants and 50% yield rate, admit rate would be: 9.0% (2700 / 30000)
If UChicago had 31,000 applicants and 50% yield rate, admit rate would be: 8.7% (2700 / 31000)</p>

<p>Correction: WHEN!</p>

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<p>Also @Divine Comedy, I do not see engineering listed in most rankings of the most popular college majors (though computer science is there, which UChicago has):</p>

<p>[10</a> most popular majors and what they pay - CNN.com](<a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/worklife/10/27/cb.what.major.pays/index.html]10”>10 most popular majors and what they pay - CNN.com)</p>

<p>One study I saw said that just 15% of U.S. college students major in science or engineering.</p>

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<p>Update: Brown reported a 7% drop in applications to 28,671, so revised figures:</p>

<p>Class of 2016 Acceptance Rates (guesses)
5.5% – Julliard
6.4 ---- Harvard (2188 / 34285)
6.7 ---- Stanford (2436 / 36744)
7.2 ---- Cooper Union
7.3 ---- Yale (2109 / 28870)
7.6 ---- Columbia (2419 / 31818)
8.4 ---- Princeton
9.0 ---- Dartmouth (2100 / 23052)
9.4 ---- Brown (2692 / 28671)
9.5 ---- MIT (1715 / 18084)
11.9 — Duke (3739 / 31500)
12.0 — Cal Tech
12.6 — Univ. of Penn (3935 / 31127)
13.6 — UChicago (3446 / 25271)
13.9 — Claremont McKenna
14.0 — Pomona
15.1 — Swarthmore
15.4 — WUSTL
15.5 — Vanderbilt
15.6 — Bowdoin
17.0 — Washington & Lee
17.3 — Cornell (6534 / 37673)
17.3 — Georgetown (3468 / 20050)
17.3 — Williams
17.4 — Northwestern (5575 / 31991)
18.3 — Middlebury</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>UChicago does not have a School of Engineering as of now, but it will be offering Molecular Engineering to undergraduates and graduate students a couple of years down the road; it is expected to change soon.</p>

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<p>@Divine Comedy LOL! :slight_smile: Thanks, I do now UChicago does not have engineering. What I meant was that nationwide, I do not see engineering listed among the Top Ten majors for American college students (based on a quick Google search.) So I am just saying this (lack of engineering) may not be as important as some people think.</p>

<p>UChicago is one of the few top schools with top professionals school across the board, which is one reason I think UChicago will eventually top Dartmouth, Brown, and Princeton (because a university’s prestige is pretty much based on undergraduate program plus professional schools. Academics focus on arts and sciences in the rankings, but the general public does not even know the arts and sciences exist. LOL!)</p>

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<p>It would be very hard for Chicago to top Princeton. Endowment size matters a lot.</p>

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<p>UChicago has already topped Princeton over the years in most national university rankings and in some of the current world university rankings. But I am speaking specifically of admissions; endowment has no effect on admissions. Princeton had an 8.4% admit rate last year (assuming its applications didn’t drop this year). UChicago will be in the 9% range in the next few years.</p>

<p>Funny to read this article about how things have changed. This was from 1988-89 when UChicago’s admit rate dropped from 61% to 48%:</p>

<p>[Report</a> on College Admissions and Financial Aid](<a href=“http://www.uchicago.edu/about/documents/chicagorecord/11-4-99/admissions.html]Report”>http://www.uchicago.edu/about/documents/chicagorecord/11-4-99/admissions.html)</p>