<p>One of my friends was talking to me about his situation with his college acceptances.</p>
<p>He was accepted to UChicago (35,000) and into Ohio State honors (full ride). If he decided to go UChicago, he would have to take out loans totaling up to over 120,000 dollars but if he went to Ohio State, it would be totally free. </p>
<p>He is planning to go to a top Ph.D program.</p>
<p>So his question is: </p>
<p>Assuming that he wants to go to a top 15 Ph.D program, is it worth going to UChicago with 120000 dollars in loans while getting a better education or go to Ohio State for free.</p>
<p>Well Chicago's economics are reputedly the best in the world but that alone is not worth the $120,000 difference... especially in loans. I would go with OSU.</p>
<p>By the way, how much financial aid did he get at Chicago? 120,000 in loans definately doesn't sound like "meets all demonstrated need"</p>
<p>I beg to differ with elsijfdl. Is there any evidence that our undergrad econ is not at the same level as our graduate econ?</p>
<p>However, I do have to tell the OP that that is a lot of money to be paying. I'm a current UChicago student from Ohio, and if I were put in this situation, I would have to consider the OSU offer very seriously. It would come down to how well you'll be able to handle the financial burden.</p>
<p>The undergraduate difference may be important in terms of getting to do legitimate research early on as a co-author, say, or as a research assistant. UChicago is going to give you more connections with top economists, no?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is there any evidence that our undergrad econ is not at the same level as our graduate econ?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>yes, the fact that graduate econ is tied for first with MIT, while chicago's undergrad selectivity falls with schools like brown, northwestern, cornell, etc. not harvard, yale, princeton, so if its undergraduate econ is "the best," it's certainly not attracting "the best" students.</p>
<p>actual quality of education doesn't vary much (i've attended schools both ranked ~70 and ~15), the biggest difference comes from the quality of the student body, the competition, and the benefit of the doubt given to the degree title</p>
<p>If he's planning to go for Ph.D, he should save his money. If there's a full-ride at Ohio State, it gives him even more opportunities to succeed in the future because he won't be heavily in debt. Then, he would be able to pursue UChicago for the Ph.D program...and afford it.</p>
<p>1) Competition for PhD programs, especially econ programs, is insane, and grad school is not only about how you do but who you know who will make some phone calls on your behalf. (This is, at least, my mom's story about getting her PhD at a highly competitive school). Chicago has a lot of big names in the econ world who are teaching undergraduates, so if your buddy thinks he might be able to get somebody at Chicago to endorse him, I'd say it might be worth it. On the other hand, if OSU also has names in econ, that might do the trick. I have no idea how much vavoom Chicago's nameplate by itself carries in the econ grad school world.</p>
<p>2) Attempts to measure quality of education are inconclusive at best. All I know is that I've been pleased with the quality of my education here at Chicago, both the quality my teachers and the intelligence of my peers. The best measuring sticks I have are friends from high school whom I took the same classes with and who are now all scattered out among various Ivy League/Top 20 schools. All of them seem to say that college is easier and the quality of education is worse than high school. I say college is harder and the quality of education is better than high school. But again, there are so many lurking variables there I don't even want to get started, so I'll say there's no real way of knowing if Chicago (or Brown? or Northwestern? or Ohio State? will offer the "best" education). I imagine that if you look hard enough at any school, you'll find what you're looking for.</p>
<p>3) If your buddy does choose Chicago, he should choose it for present goals, not future ones. I don't want him to be unhappy if, $120,000 dollars and four years later, he does not get that coveted position at a top grad school. He should instead be $120,000 poorer, and, grad school or no grad school, feel like he got the education and experience that he wanted.</p>
<p>If selectivity is the only evidence you can give me, I don't call that much evidence at all. Before I go into anything else, it certainly does not make sense for you to be evaluating our economics department using selectivity statistics for the entire undergraduate student body. Most of those students won't even be econ majors. In fact, your generalization that accepting a greater percentage of applicants = inferior quality of students is, in one word, ridiculous.</p>
<p>I don't know if a high school student can really judge if he will want to do a PhD in econ. College and grad econ is just too different.</p>
<p>Having said that, let me answer the question as posed. Competition for entry to the top 5 programs is getting to be unreal. In that sense, going to Chicago would be a better bet, because it really helps to know someone and to have done research with a top professor. I know of many students who were near the top of their classes at top state schools who got dinged by all the top 6 to 8 departments.</p>
<p>You should also note, that someone seriously wanting to do econ for grad school should probably double major in math or at least take equivalent courses at a very high level. It is not enough to go through the undergrad econ program and get straight A's. These days, the minimum for top schools increasingly looks like grad econ courses as an undergrad plus real analysis plus serious stats and econometrics, sometimes topology or advanced algebra, plus serious research. Here too, Chicago will have an edge.</p>
<p>Of course, it might be easier to attract the notice of faculty at Ohio State and enthusiastic letters from their faculty will help you more than lukewarm letters from Chicago. [As a former director of grad admissions for another program, I sometimes saw letters from top schools that were "very" tepid.]</p>
<p>However, you need to consider what happens if you're not the top student at Chicago and/or you don't decide to do econ. If you want an MBA or JD later on, an A average from Ohio State might be a little better than a B+ from U of C. And of course, money is money.</p>
<p>And I repeat, most college econ majors, and almost all high school students have NO idea what graduate econ looks like. I just counseled an A- econ student at an Ivy League school this winter and he was shocked to learn from me that he hadn't taken the right classes and was not in a position to apply for admission to any top 10 program without spending an extra year in school.</p>
<p>I forgot to add one thing. The actual material you would learn for the first few years in econ won't really be that different. And you could excel at OSU and learn as much as at Chicago. The primary difference would be access to research and also a sense of how competitive you are against top students. The latter would make UC more valuable even if applying to schools outside the top 5. Economists are among the most highly sought academics and good jobs are available to graduates from departments far below the top 5. </p>
<p>Many hs students have fantasies about going to a top 5 department and becoming faculty at a top 5 department. That is about as realistic as an 18 yr old expecting to become a partner at a top 3 law firm, maybe much less. It happens, but it is totally unpredictable. [It only becomes more plausible if, for example, you're the top math student in the entire US and are getting A's in hard math courses at Princeton or Stanford while in hs or manage to publish in a top 10 econ journal as a frosh.]</p>
<p>I thought the title of this thread was a joke at first. I apologize for that.</p>
<p>That said, there is absolutely no comparison between UChicago and anything at Ohio State. I understand the financial hit, but if the student TRULY understands what economics involves (many decide they hate it as a major), Chicago is the clear choice. </p>
<p>There are also huge cultural differences between the two schools, to say the least.</p>
<p>Just because he has to take out the full amount in loans his first year doesn't mean that's the case for all 4.</p>
<p>If he works hard enough and does the footwork, I'm sure he will be able to pull some scholarships or grants for some of it.</p>
<p>What about work study?</p>
<p>I'd be willing to bet he could get the total cost for all 4 years down to below 80k.</p>
<p>I would choose Chicago. I don't know about the quality of education compared to OSU, but campus life and the city of Chicago I hear are awesome. Not to mention what someone previously said about the intelligence of his/her peers. That matters tremendously.</p>
<p>I'm a sophomore at Ohio State, and I had to make the same decision as the original poster two years ago (but not with econ as a potential major)...</p>
<p>I was offered a full merit ride (and room and board, books, and stipend) at Ohio State. I got in Early Action to University of Chicago but did not qualify for financial aid. Like the original poster, I want to go to graduate school (in the humanities, though.) University of Chicago was my first choice school, but I couldn't financially justify turning down Ohio State's offer. </p>
<p>I came to Ohio State, and I've been quite happy with my decision. I don't have experience with the Economics department here, but I can respond to questions about undergraduate research and faculty access. The professors at Ohio State are eager to help ambitious undergraduates. I'm doing my own research as a sophomore (I was a research assistant last spring as a freshman), and this is not uncommon here. Since Ohio State is a large research institution, opportunities abound for undergraduates to get involved with research. </p>
<p>I honestly think that college is what you make of it. At a school like Ohio State, you can still be challenged if you want to be. I took 500 level classes as a freshman, and this year I've taken 600 level courses. If I don't get into the graduate programs to which I apply, I'll blame myself, not Ohio State.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Should the student go to Ohio State, it is useless studying economics as preparation for even a top 25 graduate program. A pure or applied math degree would the best way to go. Math heavy engineering would be a second best option, with some clear pocket value in and of itself. </p></li>
<li><p>Recommendation letters are a <em>huge</em> component of getting into a top flight econ PhD program. In my own graduate cohort, students are either quants out of an Ivyesque colleges (engineering, math, physics), superstars at their national flagship institution (e.g. Grand Ecoles in France, Tsinghua / Peking University in China), or have some type of significant research experience prior to entering. About the only way to correct the perceived deficit of going to a non-selective college is to spend two years as a research assistant someplace superlative like the Federal Reserve, Harvard Business School, the International Monetary Fund, etcetera. Alternatively, a terminal masters in Statistics or Econ from a heavy hitter school followed by a gap year in which ones application go out could also do the trick. </p></li>
<li><p>No 18 year old can really know if they are interested in graduate economics. If a student would be disappointed in going to UChicago at 120K and then ending up as a post-BA consultant, I-Banker or JD candidate, then they should not step up to the plate. However, these are not bad backup options unto themselves, and certainly in the right economic circumstances sending a student to UChicago to pursue them at full fare is reasonable. I have seen families pulling down 70K who are willing to buckle down and live on 35K to minimize their childs debt load. For others, this is just not an option or something they are willing to palate.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I'm with "Not Quite Old" on this one. This is an undergrad education, and going into debt to that degree is not a great strategy. As a top scholar at OSU, I'm sure you will be given easy access to prof's and educational opportunities that could lead to some good mentorship and excellent rec's down the road. Just for fun, I went and looked at the Vita's of the OSU Econ staff. You will note that many have their PhD's from Chicago, and most have their undergrad's from large state U's.</p>