UChicago or Brown?

Parents Forum
1

<p>All of the college decisions are out (at least from all the colleges I?ve applied to) and I?m having a tough time selecting a college. Out of all the colleges I have been accepted at, the two colleges that I?m most interested in are Brown University and the University of Chicago. I?m also leaving Cornell University open for consideration, but only if someone can tell me something fantastic about Cornell.</p>

<p>I?m an international student from India hoping to study Philosophy with a little bit of Physics at college. I?m an average student (at least I will be at any of these colleges) with quite a strong interest in academics. I?m not very much ?into? partying, though an odd party every few weeks or so is always fun, It?s more important to me that I make good friends. I?d like to go somewhere with a very friendly and open minded student body with a good intellectual atmosphere.</p>

<p>The idea of a smaller college is more appealing for me ? this is why I?m going to turn down the large state universities I got accepted at (and maybe should turn down Cornell for the very same reason?) I would like a nice community-like atmosphere which includes not only the students, but advisors and professors as well. It?s very important to me that I foster good personal relationships with my advisors and maybe the professors too (but the advisors are more important).</p>

<p>From the beginning of the application process, I felt a good connection with both Brown and Chicago. They?re both peculiar universities which don?t tend to attract everyone. They have something quirky about them which I can?t quite put my finger on ? but I know I?m intrigued.
In the end it is probably going to come down to the difference between a demanding core curriculum and a complete lack thereof. Although my gut instinct tells me to go with Brown and its open curriculum, I can?t help but wonder if Chicago?s expansive core would do me a whole lot of good?</p>

<p>Any advice is appreciated. Thank you very much.</p>

2

<p>You have an embarassment of riches. All three schools are wonderful, and the similarities among them far outweigh their differences.</p>

<p>One basic parameter of decision: Would you prefer to be in an urban environment, or in a self-contained college town where the university is the center of life? Chicago and Brown are in the middle of cities; Cornell is in a beautiful town on a lake in rural New York 3+ hours travel time from any significant city. Cornell also has dramatic landscapes -- a huge hill, a gorge, views of Cayuga Lake; my daughter (who attends Chicago) thought Cornell was the most physically beautiful school she visited. Many of the joys of Cornell involve nature and the environment; Chicago and Brown provide urban excitement. </p>

<p>Within the city, Chicago and Brown are situated quite differently. Chicago is in its own quiet neighborhood far from the urban center, but with good public transportation. Chicago is a big, wealthy, exciting world-class city. Brown is walking distance from the center of Providence. Providence is nice, and has a lot to offer, but it is provincial and very much in the shadow of Boston (an hour away) and New York (two hours the other direction).</p>

<p>Academically, Brown and Chicago are opposite poles, but for all that attract pretty similar students -- intellectually curious, committed to their studies. Chicago, because of its history, probably attracts a greater proportion of politically conservative students, but they do not dominate it at all. The good news about Chicago's core is that all the students share some basic courses in common. The good news about Brown's open curriculum is that no one ever takes a course in which he or she isn't interested.</p>

<p>Chicago is a little more ivory-towerish than Brown or Cornell. The students are perhaps a little more impressed with themselves and their intellectual abilities, and it has very little sports-and-party culture. Brown and Cornell have a lot less of that than, say, Michigan State, but much more than Chicago. Cornell has the reputation of having an atmosphere of competition among students, especially in the premed areas. Brown and Chicago have very, very little of that; I think Cornell has a lot less of it than its reputation suggests.</p>

<p>As you know, Cornell is the largest of the three, but not so large as to be in a whole different size category. Brown and Chicago are about the same size at the undergraduate level, Chicago somewhat larger at the graduate level, mainly because of its law and business schools, which Brown lacks, but also because its basic PhD programs are larger. Cornell has the most diversity of interests among its students, because of its large number of specialized schools (architecture, engineering, environment, hotel management, agriculture, veternary), that attract students who would not consider Brown or Chicago. Cornell also has more economic diversity, because some of its schools function as state-supported colleges in New York.</p>

<p>I'll give you a link to a beautiful speech about Cornell's history, to see if that excites you any: <a href="http://www.news.cornell.edu/campus/inauguration03/InaugAddress.Ithaca.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.cornell.edu/campus/inauguration03/InaugAddress.Ithaca.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

3

<p>I'm not sure the characterization of Chicago students as "impressed with themselves and their academic abilities" is quite accurate. They do relish academic discourse and argument, but I think they are most impressed that they can survive the Core. Something like "surprised by their academic abilities" might be more accurate. And, if most are like S, they have time for plenty of parties and fun, and still do well. Not saying others are different, of the 3 schools mentioned, I can only speak to Chicago.</p>

4

<p>Although Brown is in the city, it feels suburban and self-contained. Nothing like downtown Chicago.</p>

5

<p>"Although my gut instinct tells me to go with Brown and its open curriculum, I can?t help but wonder if Chicago?s expansive core would do me a whole lot of good?"</p>

<p>I don't know what your education in India was like, but if it was built around the British model, you have already covered a lot of Chicago's core (I used to teach it.) You can choose to recreate the parts of the core you like at Brown through careful course selection. Of course, that presumes you are motivated to do so, and work with your advisor closely. Some folks like that at Chicago you have some courses in common, and I wouldn't argue that's a bad thing, but simply a matter of preference. Obviously, you have less course selection.</p>

<p>Chicago is a GREAT city - I LOVED Chicago, even though I hated the weather for all but two weeks a year! The UChicago part is somewhat cut off from the rest of the central city, and you have to make an effort to be part of the Chicago city scene. </p>

<p>If I were a foreign student, I would definitely choose one of the schools in a city. Cornell is really, really beautiful, but it is self-contained, and cut off from virtually all metropoli, and it takes quite a while to get anywhere, especially in winter.</p>

6

<p>^Yes, as I already said, I can't think of a single reason to choose Cornell. My dilemma is regarding Brown and Chicago.
I have actually not at all covered a lot of Chicago's core. The education system in India is such that until grade 10 all students cover a fixed curriculum, but for grades 11 and 12 we focus on only 3 or 4 subjects. I studied Math, Physics, Chemistry and a language; so I'm really looking forward to exploring other fields.</p>

<p>The more I read about Chicago, the more I like it. I feel that the life of mind ideal is exactly what I'm looking for. When I read the aims of education address at Chicago by Mr.Abbott, I was completely blown away and have grown to adore everything Chicago stands for.
My only concern is that Chicago today may not be everything that it used to stand for (life of the mind, etc.) and is overrun by the careerism and "pre-professionalism" of most college students. Is the hallmark intellectual atmosphere of Chicago suffering from dilution right now?</p>

<p>idad, mini, anyone?</p>

7

<p>Sorry, too long ago for me to comment intelligently. I can say with certainty that the UChicago I attended back then as a grad student (and worked with undergrads) did not have a greater "intellectual" atmosphere than I experienced at Williams, or my d. seems to be experiencing at Smith. But in those days - and here's where you need someone with more up-to-date experience, it was more addition by subtraction. There was virtually no sports, and little interest in professional sports off the campus; there was a university orchestra, but decidedly secondrate and not well-attended; not much drama/theater; I can't remember an a cappella group; very few students involved in community service; very little in the way of studio arts; virtually no study abroad (I know Chicago has been working on changing that from my alumni magazine). </p>

<p>So books were it! Don't take this as negative, though: the students who were there, in the main, LOVED it this way - that's why they went to Chicago! Speaking for myself, I would choose Brown (because I didn't like the core curriculum, either then or now). But you may feel just the opposite, in which Chicago would be a terrific choice!</p>

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<p>Chicago is noticeably less pre-professional and careerist than almost any other top-flight university. While its student population is not comprised entirely of monks and saddhus, and some may even harbor ambitions to make money, the culture is one of intellectual inquiry first and foremost, and overt careerism is considered terrible manners.</p>

<p>Amusingly, Chicago did a big study of its alumni giving and endowment a few years ago, and one of the biggest recommendations was that the university had to start admitting more kids who were interested in making money. Its alumni were disproportionately in public service, nonprofits, and academia, compared to its peer institutions, and therefore earned less and made smaller contributions to the university.</p>

<p>Re mini: Still not much interest in sports. No a capella groups like the Ivies, but several choral groups, some good. The orchestra maybe not so much. Lots of theater -- there seems to be a lot of kids who are seriously interested in that. A fair amount of studio arts, although it will not be attractive to people who want careers as painters/photographers, etc. Community service is quite popular, and even funded by the university. Study abroad is practically ubiquitous except for pre-meds and some hard science majors who have trouble making it fit into their programs.</p>

9

<p>My experience was the opposite of mini's. I have worked with and taught students at Chicago and from and at many Ivy and Ivy-like schools, and Chicago's always seemed to have that extra spark, intellectual excitement, and confidence. Even the so-called pre-professionals at Chicago were/are, for the most part, consumed by the life of the mind, argument and inquiry. </p>

<p>When S was taking chemistry at a top Ivy he reported that it was much like a more difficult AP course, extended HS. He noticed there simply was little interest in theory or outside inquiry by the Ivy students, particularly those in the class who were premed (as is he). He, in fact, had to email a (quite famous) physics professor at Chicago to discuss a point that came up in a discussion session because neither the students or the TF wanted to discuss it. He said at Chicago a number of students would have jumped to the discussion, and it would have continued out of class. (The physics prof emailed him back with his opinion almost immediately, by-the-way.) </p>

<p>One concrete example, in a class at Chicago it was mentioned that the definition of a meter had changed from an arbitrary unit held in France, to an interval based unit defined through the speed of light (or some such thing). He said half the class went out and looked it up and the next class they explored theoretical ramifications of the change, etc. At the Ivy, the exact same aside occurred in class and not a single student mentioned it outside or inside the classroom. S thought that perhaps, as he had, they all had explored this before, he found none he spoke with had. From time-to-time he would bring things up only to be told not to worry about it, it wouldn't be on the test. Intrigued, he set out to do a little survey of other courses and to ask students about their experience. He found it to be incredibly different from Chicago. It seemed, unless one was studying on something theoretical as a concentration, the focus was on the very practical and the next career step. I don't believe that his has to do with the intelligence or quality of the student, but in the campus culture that ultimately, and often subtly, shapes student behavior.</p>

<p>Though, I suppose, he could be considered pre-professional, although a Humanities concentrator as well as premed, he greatly missed the theoretical environment that is Chicago, and was glad to return to Chicago the next quarter. As for fun, there is plenty, and also an expanded emphasis on music and the arts, and even sports. S is involved in a very active club sport that competes nationally and is funded through the University.</p>

10

<p>Open up two spreadsheets and map out the courses you may want to take over four years.</p>

<p>Does the Chicago core eat up too much time when there are mouth watering course to dream about?</p>

<p>Does Brown have the depth in your favorite fields?</p>

11

<p>If one approaches the Core as "eating up time," then the question of where to go to school is perhaps answered.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
If one approaches the Core as "eating up time," then the question of where to go to school is perhaps answered.

[/quote]
Wonderful point. I absolutely adore taking the core--even when I hate it. :)</p>

13

<p>U of C is an amazing school. I'm crazy about it. </p>

<p>The city is amazing. The best thing about U of C is that you don't just get into one of the greatest colleges in the country. You gain an urban experience in the city itself.</p>

<p>U of C students are passionate for learning and are very critical thinkers. In some other schools, you might see students admitted for their 'social attributes', or charm. At U of C, you see students being admitted for their crazy fascination with rockets or philosophy. </p>

<p>I'm telling you .. that U of C is going to be hard to turn down. It is quite possibly one of the best academic experiences in the country. And it is listed as "Best Undergraduate Experience" in Princeton Review. So hopefully that helps out a bit, too ;-)</p>

14

<p>What great choices. U/Chicago and Brown are both in my personal "Top 10." Having very little about the OP to go on, I'd say Chicago by a neck.</p>

15

<p>I have a child who attended Brown and the daughter of my cousin attended U Chicago (as does my son's close friend.) I would say that there is a difference in the academic stress level between the two schools. While kids certainly work hard at Brown and are academically challenged for sure, it seems that students at U Chicago endure very substantial work loads and a greater level of academic intensity. So, depending on your tolerance for that intensity, you may find one or the other school more to your liking.</p>

<p>You are right that both schools attract kids who are a little off-beat, quirky, etc., but I think that is more true of Chicago. I also think that the social scene at Brown is a little more mainstream than Chicago. From what I gather, there are some strong similarities in terms of student population and school culture between Swathmore and Chicago, despite the differences in size and location.</p>

16

<p>Core does eat up time if you've already read the books, know the material, done something very similar in a Harkness type high school, or don't like 'core'.</p>

<p>You only get to take 32+ courses as an undergrad with a typical load. If you have very wide or very deep interests, that's not very many courses at the end of the day. Each class is precious.</p>

<p>But to each his own.</p>

17

<p>The University of Chicago is on a quarter system, and a minimum of 42 courses must be taken to graduate, and 48 can be taken with a full load every quarter without going over or taking additional courses during the summer. </p>

<p>Even if a high school student had read a few of the books normally covered in the core (because I highly doubt there are high schools that cover all of these texts), he would still gain substantially by taking the core and discussing the texts with knowledgeable professors and very bright, inquisitive peers. There is also, of course, the benefit of increased age and experience which allows one to read a text with much more depth and understanding. </p>

<p>I in fact think that Chicago is perfect for those students with "very wide or very deep interests" because the core covers every major academic descipline, many times by combining several disciplines into one course in order to fully study a subject or book. I would say that a student who wanted to triple major would encounter problems, but normally exploring multiple subjects is not a problem at all. The core also allows students to find what areas they are truly interested in by experiencing them all in a college setting, which is normally significantly different than studying the same subjects in high school.</p>

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<p>It is a common misconception that the Chicago core is a "great books" program, which might be redundant if one had read a high percentage of the great books covered. Some of the core Humanities course options have a little "great books" flavor, but in general the Chicago core is not a "great books" program. If you look at the reading lists for the special core courses in Hum, Soc, and Civ, you will see precious few books that will have been studied in depth, or even read, by high schoolers. Once upon a time, I actually got a prize as the member of my freshman class with the greatest level of general knowledge, and I had only the vaguest idea who Adorno and Durkheim were before my college career was pretty advanced.</p>

19

<p>My eldest daughter is currently a freshman at Brown & we've had several opportunities to interact with her classmates at length. I hope the comments below prove helpful...</p>

<p>[ul]
[<em>]She applied to schools specifically based on the perceived quality of their applied math programs.
[</em>]She was fortunate enough to be accepted by a variety of top schools. One of the main factors affecting her decision to select Brown was the open curriculum. She is self-motivated and has chosen a diverse set of challenging courses -- including Honors versions where available. She used her AP credits to jump ahead (Brown does not offer AP credit) to higher level courses in Spanish, Economics, etc.
[<em>]I have yet to meet any "quirky" students. Those I've met are highly intelligent and have a diverse set of passions, interests, & skills.
[</em>]Students don't seem to be competitive with one another. Though some are intense, as a group they're easygoing and quick to offer help to classmates.
[<em>]The campus setting allows quick access to downtown & has a wealth of eateries & stores right on Thayer Street -- which is directly outside her dorm.
[</em>]The student population is incredibly diverse. Many of her friends are international students.
[li]She's having the time of her life.[/li][/ul]</p>