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no one can deny that getting a high GPA at Chicago is tremendously harder than at a school such as Brown
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<p>Is there strong evidence of that? That EVERY student who attends Chicago in EVERY field of study with EVERY professor has a lower GPA than had they attended Brown and pursued an identical field of study? And that EVERY Brown student in EVERY field of study has a higher GPA than had they attended Chicago and pursued an identical field of study? CC rumors don't count as documented facts.</p>
<p>As far as grade deflation at Chicago goes, I believe that it's like the Loch Ness Monster-- something you tell people about to scare the masses off and keep your beautiful school to yourself. Newmassdad did something pretty interesting-- Chicago does not make average GPA information well-known (a relief, as far as I see it), but he counted the number of students in his daughter's graduation handbook who had graduated with Dean's List, which is set at 3.25. About 2/3 of the class had a 3.25+</p>
<p>Sorry to bicker about these small points, but I do not think the OP should make the Chicago vs. Williams decision based on myths of grade inflation. I think there are a lot more things to consider about each school, and I wish the OP the best of luck in making what may seem like a stressful decision but is in reality a very happy decision.</p>
<p>I'm assuming you are middle class from your FA awards. That $13K difference would be enough at my house to take Chicago off the table altogether. Save the money for law school.</p>
<p>Can you make it to Williams previews April 20-21?</p>
<p>What exactly is 'popular enough'? I'm talking the difference between a lifestyle that incorporates competitive athletics as a cornerstone experience... a preparation for competitive business/profeesional services, rather than tolerated like one would a subculture like fantasy roleplaying, etc.</p>
<p>There is a poster on this forum whose daughter is a Chicago athlete (ball sport) and has had a great student/athlete experience. I think there is a lot of support for the athletes and the rivalry with Wash U is pretty intense.</p>
<p>DunninLA, as a parent of two Chicago students I can assure you that sports are not derided at the University. Not even quietly. What you won't find is anyone buying into a belief that the only way to prepare for business/professional services is to suit up and play for a team. I think what you find is a tremendous 'good for you' if you play sports, and an equal 'good for you' if you happen to play for the Starcraft team.(And FYI, I recently read maybe in Fortune(?) that games like Starcraft are the new golf...lots of very connected successful people play and use it for networking...imagine that)</p>
<p>To the OP, you have an amazing choice between two of the best schools out there. You already know I share some of your concerns regarding law school out of Chicago. However, I do believe that things at Chicago have changed very rapidly(such as quality of students) and that the law school numbers will soon reflect that...for better or worse Chicago is becoming more like other schools.</p>
<p>I think you want to visit both and figure out if you want pastoral or city. My kids grew up with rural countryside and small schools, Williams appealed to the oldest until he realized there was no downtown, no indie clubs, no hookah bars, no opera. He needed all that, the second loves coming home to peace and quiet but finds being close to a city something he too needs. Only you can decide what you yourself need. But don't worry about Chicago's rep, yes it is hard but hard like a really tough workout. You'll complain a lot but part of the fun is in the complaining. After a quarter you'll feel spent...but good. Really good.</p>
<p>Regarding 'quality' of students, I think Chicago always had brilliant minded kids...it's just that there has always been a thing about 'grade grubbers'. It was very hard to be preprofessional and keep you eye on a 3.8 without incurring a lot of unspoken disapproval.</p>
<p>hekau, you've put it very well. Yet....it is highly unlikely that the majority of students at Williams would <em>equally</em> value competitive athletics and Starcraft as you position for the Chicago students. THAT is the difference.</p>
<p>I am open to being disabused of this preconception, or prejudice...</p>
<p>DunninLA, as a parent of two Chicago students I can assure you that sports are not derided at the University. Not even quietly. What you won't find is anyone buying into a belief that the only way to prepare for business/professional services is to suit up and play for a team. I think what you find is a tremendous 'good for you' if you play sports, and an equal 'good for you' if you happen to play for the Starcraft team.(And FYI, I recently read maybe in Fortune(?) that games like Starcraft are the new golf...lots of very connected successful people play and use it for networking...imagine that)</p>
<p>To the OP, you have an amazing choice between two of the best schools out there. You already know I share some of your concerns regarding law school out of Chicago. However, I do believe that things at Chicago have changed very rapidly(such as quality of students) and that the law school numbers will soon reflect that...for better or worse Chicago is becoming more like other schools.</p>
<p>I think you want to visit both and figure out if you want pastoral or city. My kids grew up with rural countryside and small schools, Williams appealed to the oldest until he realized there was no downtown, no indie clubs, no hookah bars, no opera. He needed all that, the second loves coming home to peace and quiet but finds being close to a city something he too needs. Only you can decide what you yourself need. But don't worry about Chicago's rep, yes it is hard but hard like a really tough workout. You'll complain a lot but part of the fun is in the complaining. After a quarter you'll feel spent...but good. Really good.</p>
<p>Nice to have this choice, Mach, at some level you really can't go wrong--both places are excellent schools where you can get a first class education--a couple of things you might think about--
1--While both poli science departments are excellent (I know people in both) Chicago is a major research university with lots of graduate students(way more grad students than undergrads) that Williams doesn't have--the focus is less explicitly on undergrads, so my
guess is you'd see less of professors at UC than at Williams
2--You do need to visit Williams before you decide--For a bigger school, Chicago is compact and fairly tight socially, but it's located in the middle of a big city and surrounded by areas that are kinda rough--Williams is WAY out in the boonies and there's nothing there besides campus--there's a lot to do on campus, but it's not Chicago
3--My sense is that while UC is trying to soften its uber-geek, long-on-brains-but-short on-personal-hygiene image, there's still a streak of the anti-athletics attitude that frequently goes with that--At Williams, athletes live in the same dorms as everybody else, there are a lot of ex-athletes in the student body, and people turn out to support their friends even if they aren't particularly sports-oriented
Full disclosure--My son looked at both and went ED to Williams, but still wears his UofC t-shirt with the Nobel Prize winners on the back</p>
<p>I never get the sense that Chicago is anti-athletic, even though the average student at Williams is probably more interested in athletics than the average student at Chicago. Students at Chicago are surprisingly athletically gifted and interested in intramural sports, club sports, varsity sports and professional sports. And, if nothing else, the gyms are open crazy long hours and people are always there.</p>
<p>Hekau --I just had an image that might help.. do you remember documentaries of the Kennedy compound? They'd all get together, and what would the young adults/adults do in the afternoon? Competitive football games on the lawn! You know the kind, where "touch" football means "everything goes" short of separating a person's head from his shoulders.</p>
<p>That's the vibe I'm referring to. It's borrowed most likely from England where, in the prep schools and on into Cambridge/Oxford, the student-athlete was an ideal.</p>
<p>Yes DunninLA, I'm well aware of the old notion of 'best and brightest' which generally meant more EQ, more manly than 'effete' and smart. It's all sorts of wrong and at it's heart is rooted in very biased hateful beliefs.(Too smart meant you were gay or a jew...not the sort you'd want to be a leader. It's very dated and is a throwback to the era of Jim Crow and other delightful lies held dear) I understand completely but I would simply point to Uof C's alumni as proof that one needn't be a star athlete in order to be a world leader or someone who strongly influences the world. Check out the current administration....lots of UChicago people to be found...and they probably played midnight capture the flag in the snow or killer badminton rather than quarterback.</p>
<p>My two kids are 2nd degree black belts, fencers and are very into MMA. They know lots of kids who are either on teams or just are really into various different things at the University. They just don't happen to think it defines their character.</p>
<p>Chicago is really not that different from other schools. The gym is gorgeous and strangely enough....well used. Athletes are supported, they just aren't held to a different standard.(Which you know, if you were truly a leader you wouldn't want anyways, would you?)</p>
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Well of course. Haha if a person gets a 3.8 anywhere they will be competitive for admissions at top law schools but the point is that getting a 3.8 at Chicago is almost suicidal.</p>
<p>Going to Chicago and attaining a high GPA will of course help you get into a top law school but no one can deny that getting a high GPA at Chicago is tremendously harder than at a school such as Brown.
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<p>No, no: you've got it all wrong.</p>
<p>Let's say the GPA of the average applicant from UChicago to HLS/YLS is a 3.3, and you have a 3.6. You would have a significant advantage, because your GPA is much more impressive that those of your peers. A 3.6 from UChicago, then, would be garner far more respect from an admissions dean than a 3.8 from Stanford, where grade inflation is pervasive.</p>
<p>No, I disagree completely. Look in the Chicago forums at posts by Cue7. Law schools really dont care a lot about rigor in undergrad. You may get a small boost but very very small from attending Chicago. All of the Chicago officials say that "dont worry law schools know how hard it is here" but in reality it doesn't come into play. That 3.8 from Stanford will ALWAYS beat the 3.6 from Chicago if other stuff is roughly the same.</p>
<p>Machiavelli12 has it right. Admission to (top) law schools is unfortunately a numbers game, plain and simple. Real people do read applications, and they might look very slightly more favorably on someone from Chicago or Princeton than someone from various state schools or wherever, but at the end of the day higher numbers mean better chances, regardless (for the most part) of where they're from, and this is documented pretty well.</p>
<p>Having sat on a law school admissions committee, I can say that it is primarly a numbers game (LSAT and GPA), but the quality of undergrad does matter. We definitely considered the quality/competitiveness of the school to determine what the class rank/GPA means. That said, I don't think there would be a difference between how Williams or Chicago would be perceived viz-a-viz one another.</p>
<p>First of all, to reiterate don’t worry about the law school issue. You have ALREADY resolved it with either school, now you just need to do well in your coursework and get that GPA. NOW, if you are an athlete, Williams might be a good choice, as U of Chicago hasn’t exactly been tearing it up in the UAAC haha. But I think you NEED to visit Williams just so you can make a 100% decision. All things being equal, I might opt for Chicago (I love the city) BUT all things are not equal. You will have 50K more to SAVE by choosing Williams and that will go a LONG way when you are paying back Law School Debt. In this case, I vote for Williams!</p>
<p>Thanks, after visiting Williams in a few weeks I will hopefully make my decision in favor of Williams unless the campus is totally different from what I have researched and read.</p>