@parentworry agreed with you regarding ranking.
@parentworry You are likely referring to this story,
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html
There, the writer implies that in training sessions for readers she got that vibe. However, her whole article was about how holistic approach was so subjective which made her so unsure of what she was doing. It seemed somewhat accusatory at the beginning, but I am not sure if it was by the time I got to the end. I thought that she was just not happy with lack of a simple objective criteria (like the SAT) for making the determination.
Yes, I think that is the one I read. She basically was confused about what she was trained to do vs what the senior people were doing and too many subjectivity to deal with. But, even after reading it over, I think the points I made are not wrong.
does anyone know if they’re releasing decisions this tuesday?
Tuesday?
It’s Friday @kachuang
@parentworry What caught my eye was that you said that according to a reader, “the first level readers are instructed to be race-blind, at second level, they definitely do consider race”. If you based that statement on the story mentioned, it was at least a major reach to say that.
In any case, contrast it with this article: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anonymousadmissions/college-admissions-scam-felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-ivy
Two seemingly reasonable people that actually have extremely different agendas and yet seem to be on the same side.
I think that as long as it is people making holistic decisions and there are two or more people to read the application, they will always find places where they feel strongly one way and it goes the other way. In the end, they will not be happy. Some of them will write an article like they did. Someone else will misrepresent what was written in that article…
We as a society are giving colleges conflicting signals because there is nothing close to a consensus on what is the right way.
From one perspective, there is Prop 209 and even though UC system is likely the most race blind in the US because of it, so many commentators are not happy with UC efforts at maintaining diversity. Are they wrong? NO. From another perspective, the Latino lobby in CA government is pretty open with UCs saying that if they don’t cater better to their constituents, UCs will lose funding. Are they wrong? NO. Non-Latino whites who are about 40% of population of CA are about 22% of UC student body (20% at UCSD). Are ones who worry about that wrong? NO. Are Asian students who get denied admission to UCs when others with seemingly similar scores get admitted wrong to worry? NO.
The problem is that these conflict. A statement that UCs “definitely” use race, even if unintended, will stroke, agitate, and enrage some. Are you wrong to interpret what you read that way? Probably, but, who knows. Are you definitely pushing a particular divisive agenda when you write what you wrote? YES. Did you mean to do it? Probably not.
@gkalman I agreed with everything you said, and thanks for sharing the article. It was a good read!
It’s good to get into the minds of the application readers. This article did a good job at explaining in detail the application reviewing process from the author’s perspective. I am a bit worried after reading the article (not about race particularly), it’s the sense that you are being punished somehow for not having a hard life, a struggle of some kind. The “holistic” argument allows the AOs to get away with murder, I feel.
I get that the reviewer is not supposed to be impressed with the international mission trips, but I hope they don’t punish the student b/c somehow showing “privilege” annoyed them. During the application process last fall, in our household we often joked that just tell a sob story and you’ll get in, that she got the grades, now she just had to write stuff that makes the readers cry.
My D’s essays had none of the sob stories. She wrote about her love for logics and puzzle since she was little girl. The process of going deeper than surface value, recognizing patterns and relationships, and then applying that understanding to expose the optimal outcome. She wrote about her love for soccer and how her love for logics and recognizing the pattern enabled her to be the most effective player on the field even though she isn’t the strongest of the fastest. That the who’s, what’s, where’s, and when’s come easy when you know the answer to the how’s and why’s
She wrote about self-awareness and observance enabled her to understand and appreciate different cultures and understand people’s suffering because she has been travelling all over the world since she was a baby (We have family all over the world). She wrote about her mission trips and many trips all over Asia, and the poverty she witnessed during those trips, had fueled her to want to make the world a better place. She talked about tutoring autism kids at school and how privileged she is to only endure the mild frustration until the bell rings, but those kids endured the frustrations all their life. If you know D in real life, you will know that everything she wrote about described exactly who she is as a person IRL.
She didn’t write about the typical teenager struggles, she didn’t write about her mom struggle to escape homelessness and managed to graduate from UCB. She didn’t write a “sob” story (she could have). She didn’t write about them because they are tiny little facts in her life and frankly it didn’t really shape who she is. She is privileged and she is fully aware of it, and of course it comes out through her writing, not as a bragging right but how realizing her privilege will make her a better person, not just for herself but for society. Instead of emphasizing her “struggles”, she emphasized her privileges. I sincerely hope that she doesn’t get punished for not having hardships, or not being authentic, whatever that means in the eye of the application reviewers.
@momofcskid I have a fundamental issue with “Waitlist” that’s like going for a job and they tell you “You’re Second Runner Up” sorry try again. Now, why would someone WAIT to get into a school if they weren’t accepted immediately? That means your putting all your hope on someone else not wanting to get in. If you want a student then you want them. If there aren’t enough spots state that. I told my kid not to bother with waitlists because do you really want to be the backup quarterback…?
@Vibes4me i see what you’re saying but when you’re put on a waitlist you don’t know what “place” you are on the waitlist, if someone who got into the school didn’t want to go, they would admit the first person on the waitlist (the most qualified or the person they want the most, if that makes sense). so waiting for a school that you were waitlisted for is a bet
@kachuang exactly! and I say go where you’re truly wanted the 1st round and not wait.
@Vibes4me I understand the emotions/sting of being put on a waitlist; however as I advised my DS… Think of it as you qualify, you are admit-table in to the university but given some preferences they chose someone else as primary. I remember going to a USC presentation, where the USC engineering dean got up and was the most candid and honest I’ve yet heard. Rather than stating the common tag line of “we do holistic review and if you qualify apply…” he stated simply that 85% of applicants qualify and they could randomly chose amongst the top 85% but they try to architect a class to be complimentary to one another to enrich the educational experience. Put another way 85% are admit-table and waitlist in some ways means you didn’t make the initial class architecture/design. Looking at it that way hopefully takes some of the emotions out of the alternative “runner-up” or “not good enough” thinking.
@Nhatrang I don’t know what would be the correct thing to write in a college essay is. My older D went through an application process with top notch stats, great recommendations, and top notch ECs and got rejected at every one of her top four choices. Most likely, it was her essays. But, it still boggles my mind what it could have been. I thought her essays were very good also.
I think it is pretty random because every reader is a different person and in the end it is the luck of the draw.
Personally, I would not want the person writing the article I linked to be a reader. Even though, I mostly agree with her on politics, I find her somewhat narrow minded. E.g., for someone who went to a small private liberal arts college with financial aid, she does not acknowledge, let alone appreciate, the fact that those rich dumb white boys are actually the ones that subsidized her education; she seems blissfully unaware that by having her friends swipe her into cafeterias to feed her is stealing from the very college that she loves and is paying her salary; and she is more than willing to reject a student simply because this student doesn’t agree with her world view based on social or religious grounds.
But, every reader is a different person. Hopefully, this small sample of two readers is biased. I.e., I believe that most are actually different from these two because most don’t write articles about how they were disenfranchised with the process.
But, there is no perfect system that works for everyone. May be it is better to just use the SAT. But that would be wrong in so many ways. May be it is better to just go holistic. But then the human factor makes the process random.
Best of luck to your D. Best of luck to my D. !!!
Admissions based on Race are illegal, in CA or any other state. Yet, it is the very first question requested on most any application. Perhaps it helps guide said institution to develop language appropriate materials and resources for current and future applicants.
Latino lobbies, as one example provided above, do not “give” money to any degree CA taxpayers do.
Now let’s ask the tough question: what would be the difference of a Latino Lobby, as mentioned, giving funds to a school, let alone a public institution, vs. what individual parents have been doing (frankly, for years) to garner admission for their student-child, even given via a bogus NFP charity? “UCs will lose funding”? Please do tell.
@Vibes4me I don’t understand why people are being so emotional abut wait lists (oh they must think I am not good enough, screw them!). There is a reason why students apply to these colleges - they must think that this is a good match for them. My son got wait listed at his #1 choice school (Virginia Tech). He got accepted to three other good schools he applied to. He is going to accept one of these offers but remain on the wait list at VT. If it comes through - great, he ends up at his #1 choice. If not - fine, he will go somewhere else. Nothing to lose by staying on the wait list.
@bigfandave There is nothing wrong with that. Is there anything wrong with rich people creating a college that costs $500K a year to attend, offer no financial aid, and hire the best instructors money can buy for their children?
It is clearly very wrong to fake an SAT/ACT score or buy off an official with other fiduciary duties. Is it wrong for a private institution to take a $10 million donation, admit their child, and use the money to educate 50 needy students? I don’t know what the answer to that one is.
But, I am only guessing at what offended you in the discussion.
For example, all I said is that there is an unsolvable conflict between the following two objectives
- Latinos, who comprise 40% of CA population, would ask that a public, CA state funded, institutions would enroll a similar percentage of their own. Currently, top ones hover around 20%.
- Asian students are not being fairly treated on merit. (For example, merit as measured via SAT and/or weighted GPA.)
From a moral values point of view, I see both of these objectives as having merit. I am empathetic to both. I can find supporting evidence and arguments for both of these points of view. I don’t know that one is more correct than the other. All I said that we as a society don’t know either and this creates conflicting goals for our institutions.
Colleges should enroll qualified candidates period, not a quota. Either we are a socialist educational system or we are a merit based. Quotas and Race are illegal, as we’ve chosen as a society to focus on merit, and attempt to achieve as much equity in equal opportunity for equally qualified applicants. We aren’t perfect. Rigging the system, with race, quotas, or even financial preferences doesn’t serve the highest quality output possible.
Have to agree with genesmasher here, That said, I do see and feel the “emotional” other side though. Once you get in and are at the college of choice, be it via waitlist or other, the admissions folks making the decision are long gone from your thoughts and its you at the college and doing your best work. As they say … “Journey on”…
@bigfandave That is your opinion and I don’t disagree with it. But, sorry, I am not going to disagree with the other opinion either. Both make sense.
Unfortunately, we don’t live in a perfect world without biases. What you call merit and what someone else calls merit may be two very different things that are incompatible.
In the end we either all need to agree on a definition or agree to compromise.
Interesting point on merit. That is what “holistic” admissions are also meant for. That said, my point is quotas and racial preferences are illegal- it an opinion, the law. We can always change that through our representative government process, proposition.