<p>I would agree that doing more than MBA, JD, MD is beyond the scope of the WSJ.</p>
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<p>I’m not saying that Cal and UMichigan grads should necessarily be viewed as worse but I don’t think that PA shows that graduate admissions people (who as far as I can tell are not doing these surveys) value grads from Berkeley and UMich more highly than Dartmouth, Rice and Georgetown grads. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, even on LinkedIn, one can’t isolate one degree from a school from another. It is useful to see what percent of Brown grads went to a top 10 B-school vs what percent of Williams grads went to a top 10 B-school because neither school has its own B-school but it can’t differentiate clearly whether one is a UMich alum because of obtaining a BA or MBA there.</p>
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<p>I fail to see how deciding which UGs to accept for grad school makes one more informed about the relative merits of colleges than deciding which grads will get job offers. In both cases, candidates are from across the country and are submitting an application and undergoing interviews and prior experience with alums of those schools is taken into consideration.</p>
<p>midatlmom, I think that it is dishonest to pretend to have enough knowledge about the academics of over 200 institutions and to feel qualified to give them a rating, which the rater knows will play a very important role in the national rankings. I know that it is impossible for anyone to be able to provide this information, not even approximately, within reason. To me, that fact is undebatable. To top it off, Mr Machen’s assessment of the schools in his neighborhood has been deemed to be rather inaccurate, according to local academic sources. </p>
<p>I guess I am somewhat of a cynic and I believe that selfishness motivates most human actions. To me, thinking otherwise, would be rather naive.</p>
<p>His assessment of his own school has been deemed to be overly enthusiastic. As to other schools in Florida, while local academic sources related to those other schools may be upset, it’s not clear at all that’s he’s wrong. </p>
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<p>Well, I don’t know that it’s impossible. Unlikely yes. Impossible no.</p>
<p>This isn’t really news to me, nor is it “cooking” the ratings. High-level administrators are given these peer assessment forms to rank what they think schools are for the U.S. New rankings. This has always been a stupid method of ranking IMO, because schools are inclined (for marketing purposes; universities are businesses) to make themselves look good especially in relation to their closest competitors. Moreover, the President’s job is to attract both students and sponsors/donors to the school. Those U.S. News ratings are very popular and students and their parents and sponsors and donors all swear by them as if they were the Bible of Universities.</p>
<p>Why is it at all surprising that he would rate his own university as “distinguished” up there with the nation’s most prestigious colleges and name the university’s closest competitors (other public Florida institutions) as being inferior to his university? This is exactly what I would expect any administrator to do. And no, it’s not limited to Southern universities. Newspapers have only gotten a hold of a few of these forms because universities are likely loath to let anyone else see how they’re assessing the schools. And catch this from the article:</p>
<p>Machen’s assessment was similar to where the universities placed in U.S. News & World Report’s 2009 rankings – with UF, FSU and Miami all appearing among the magazine’s top tier of 133 schools. His assessment was sent in April for use in the 2010 edition, which is being published in August.</p>
<p>He’s not ranking them any way differently from anyone else who fills these forms out rank them, either. Do you think Tier 3 and 4 colleges are giving themselves “marginal” or “adequate” rankings?</p>
<p>This is another reason why these peer assessments are just silly, and why using them as 25% of the formula is laughable, and why the U.S. News rankings positions rarely change much besides shuffling a few spaces around. They are self-perpetuating. First of all, why the hell do I care what the president of University of Florida thinks about FSU, UCF, or Wisconsin or Texas? He’s going to say they’re better than everyone. Of course he’s going to say they’re up there with Harvard. Who doesn’t want to be associated with Harvard in this business? Also, on what basis are these schools being ranked upon? DO they even ask the Presidents of these colleges why they rank the schools the way they do? Single-item rankings are faulty in general. How can you rank an entire university like that? Of course they don’t ask these questions, because they get the results they want (the top colleges stay in the top, the middling colleges stay in the middle, the bottom colleges stay at the bottom) and everyone’s relatively happy.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>No employer is able to accurately evaluate and grade the present state of the faculty and the graduating students of 263 colleges, much less the scholarship and curriculum. None. I’d guess that 10-20% of that number is more accurate. Employers (like these academic voters) would be expected to vote only on schools that they have a high familiarity with. </p></li>
<li><p>The question that is being asked in PA is not clear. What is meant by each of USNWR’s four categories of 1) Scholarship; 2) Curriculum; 3) Quality of Faculty; and 4) Quality of Students? How should these be measured and weighted to arrive at the final grade? </p></li>
<li><p>Experienced business people understand that things change and that what an employer knew about a school and its graduates in 1999 or 2004 might not be the case in 2009. </p></li>
<li><p>If it is being suggested that subjective assessments have no place in rankings, I emphatically agree. To placate those who differ, a reasonable compromise would a separate ranking, made up solely of subjective data. Even if we agreed that all subjective assessments should be excluded, if forced to choose between assessments based on teaching and those based on some undefined premise, I would opt every time for the one that deals with what the student experiences in the classroom. </p></li>
<li><p>Students are the biggest stakeholder in the college business. If opinions are to be considered, let’s give some voice to the customer. They pay the largest share of the bills. Giving the customer some input in the process and an ability to hold faculty accountable for the product that they deliver seems very reasonable to me. </p></li>
<li><p>How do we know which of the PA voters are untrustworthy and which are trustworthy and how many there are of each?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>LOL, hawkette. You think someone like Machen can’t possibly know enough about 263 colleges to rate them on a 1 to 5 scale. You, on the other hand, seem to have no problem at all pontificating on the comparative merits of hundreds of schools from coast to coast—or in some cases, how a particular school stacks up against “all the schools in the USA.” Here’s just a small sampling of your posts:</p>
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<p>How is it that you come to be so much better informed on this subject than college and university presidents and provosts, whose standing in a very competitive national market requires them to know where their institution stands relative to the competition?
So we’re supposed to conclude that people like Machen can’t possibly know enough about 263 universities to have their opinions count for anything . . . and instead we should defer to the all-knowing, all-seeing hawkette who can confidently rate a UC Berkeley, a Michigan, or a Vanderbilt against the entire “universe of college alternatives”? Give me a break.</p>
<p>The raters are asked to consider the above factors to help determine if a school’s undergraduate academic offerings are distinguished, strong, good, adequate, or marginal.</p>
I would trust Hawkette and other informed posters on this site over 99% of college provosts and deans. Machen gave Brown and Dartmouth a marginal rating in comparison to American colleges generally while giving UF an exceptional rating. Does that sound like an informed man to you?</p>
<p>Machen is either ignorant or manipulative. Do you trust a fool or someone with a clear agenda? Pick your poison bclintonk.</p>
<p>Knew you missed the old Baghdaddy, so lets catch up by showing everyone the question I posed to you on the UM board when you were over there ■■■■■■■■…and you still have not answered. Yes, folks, Bick said something nice about UM…maybe it was Bick’s “evil twin”</p>
<p>Aww Bick, There you go being Propaganda Minister again</p>
<p>Couple points to make about UF & Sun Tan U</p>
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<li><p>University of Miami is not a member of the Association of American Universities (unlike UF).<br>
Yes, I see those other 50 billion students served, paragon’s of 300 students per class/online courses galore institutions Ohio State and Michigan State are members also. Notice Boston College and Wake forrest are not on it either. They suck too, right Bick?</p></li>
<li><p>Sun Tan U gets about half the research expenditures as UF.
Yes, Bick, UM is STILL three times smaller</p></li>
<li><p>UM could not even afford to keep the Orange Bowl and it got bulldozed.
Uhh, they didn’t own the stadium, the City of Miami did…better to lease then to own in this economy, it is called fiscal responsibility, not lobbying every senator/rep for pork or favors for “Bull Gators”</p></li>
<li><p>UF was #1 party school for Princeton Review, Miami was #1 party school by Playboy.
So what your saying is that dorks party at UF and Hot Women party at UM…Bick WOW! Your right for once!</p></li>
<li><p>Miami has half the endowment in comparison to UF.
Right again…UF is bigger and older…you mean it doesn’t have like ten times UMs like other schools of UF size or age, oh </p></li>
<li><p>UF is more selective, and is ranked higher on the undergraduate ranking.
As usual, no source cited…sorry folks, have to bring this out again, please type in of Miami or University of Florida
[College</a> Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics](<a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/]College”>College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics) Yes, never let facts get in the way of Bick’s Big Lie</p></li>
<li><p>Miami’s graduate programs are lousy (only exception is the Miller School of Medicine, but even then Shands at UF still blows it out of the water).
Yeah, Bick’s negativity or real human triumph, you decide, dear reader <a href=“http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/1107987.html[/url]”>http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/1107987.html</a> Luckily, this women didn’t get blown out of the water, but hey, she didn’t go to Shands so she sucks, right Bick?</p></li>
<li><p>UF has an amazingly strong alumni-base, whereas the UM alumni-base resembles what you would find at a commuter school. You guys can’t even compete with Miami University (Ohio) on this front. Last I saw, UM’s alumni giving rate was higher then UFs. Yes, competing with McUF for sheer size is futile, quality is a different story. Have you even ever been to MU? </p></li>
<li><p>UF’s libraries are far greater than what can be found and Sun Tan U.
Oh, yeah UFelony’s library with the McUF French Fries out front…study with all 50,000 of your closest friends…well minus the Princeton Review nerds partying with Lambda Lambda Moo</p></li>
<li><p>University of Miami is not even located downtown, it is off in the middle of suburbia.
Yes, it is not in G’ville, otherwise known as “Cowtown”</p></li>
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<p>That’s just blatantly false. He did no such thing. He gave both Brown and Dartmouth a “good” rating (=3), not “marginal” (= 1). He gave most schools a rating of “adequate” (2), and thus he rated Brown and Dartmouth more highly than most schools. How can you say he gave them a “marginal rating in comparison to American colleges generally”? And since both Brown and Dartmouth had a 4.3 average PA rating in 2009, you can’t even say Machen’s view of them is outside the mainstream. In a normal distribution for a school with a 4.3 average, you’d expect that most of the raters gave these schools a 4, while a smaller number gave them a 5, and a yet again smaller but not insignificant number gave them a 3. Thus his scoring was not out of the mainstream; lots of people agreed with him, though they were in the minority.</p>
<p>And just how do you “know” that a 3 is too low in these cases, except by judging it against your own subjective view of these schools based on accumulated anecdotes, reputation among the public generally and among people whose opinion you trust, and scraps of (mostly dubious) data from here and there? In short, you “know” Machen was wrong because based on exactly the same kinds of information sources he’s criticized for using, you came to a different conclusion. Except that, being in the business on a full-time basis and living and breathing this stuff, he’s likely to come across more of this kind of stuff. </p>
<p>I’m not saying he’s right. Personally, I’d have given both these schools a 5, and more college and university presidents and provosts agree with me than with him. (Most, however, would give these schools a 4, and thereby in effect say I’m
just as far off the mark as Machen). But so what? He’s being asked for his opinion. Presumably he has reasons for his opinion. I agree with him on about 95% of the schools he voted on (though I’d have given a bunch of them “don’t know”). But apart from his high ratings for the schools he’s been President of, I just don’t see any evidence of systematic bias or systematic or egregious error in his results; just honest differences of opinion in a small fraction of the cases.</p>
<p>It is the 24 June 09 and T.K. is still not accepting accountability for what happened on his watch…do you want an update until his forc…er “resignation” takes effect?</p>
<p>ucb,
Would you please help me understand what is meant by “scholarship record” and how that phrase is to be interpreted by the PA voters in their considerations? Also, after considering it, what weight would you and/or they assign to it in an overall consideration of a school’s PA score?</p>
<p>“Baghdad is upset because his school, “Suntan U”, isn’t included in the NHMFL award with FSU and UF.”</p>
<p>Hey, you can have this thing…when they have a facility Emergency Action Plan for things like large chemical spills…hope all those FSU students have the appropriate suits</p>
<p>Have you mind melded with Bernie “Big Mac” at McUF to ask about his rankings and your “less than stellar undergraduates” at his lowest ranked schools yet?</p>
<p>Gee, not even a Suntan U response…maybe Bick is in Cowtown watching Hefner’s plane at 32,000 feet, not yet starting his descent into Miami…</p>
<p>Here are some examples of things that a college administrator would know about another school:</p>
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<li>How many faculty are being hired/fired, in what fields and general strength of faculty.</li>
<li> Faculty and administrative turmoil–i.e., the faculty at a specific school is upset at the administration. Also, the general strength of the school administrators.</li>
<li> Awards won–i.e., Rhodes, important research grants, etc. </li>
<li> Significant building being undertaken, i.e., new neuroscience buildings.</li>
<li> Budget and financial woes.</li>
<li> General academic reputation and specific programs that are good. Also, they would have a pretty good idea about which schools are known to have excellent teaching vs. schools that use lots of TAs and focus more on research (although not all professors are good and not all TAs are bad).</li>
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<p>In addition, of course, college administrators would have access to all the general information we all do about board scores, yield rates, acceptance rates etc. Moreover, they would meet other administrators at conferences and on panels. They would probably know which schools are trying to “game” the rankings and which schools might be genuinely improving their faculty and facilities. </p>
<p>I believe that with this information, they could make a relatively informed decision about the relative strength of many schools. Obviously it is still an opinion and clearly there are going to be people who don’t take the survey seriously or who, like hawkette, feel comfortable ranking schools they might not have sufficient information about. However, I would definitely take the opinions of academics over those of employers, who probably know very little about the academic quality of most schools and who base their knowledge on the few graduates they hire or over the opinions of students, who have little knowledge of any school but their own.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that they can’t make an informed decision – I’m saying that their decision is also going to be “informed” by things like enhancing their own school’s appearance and reputation, keeping down their closest competitors as much as possible, and perpetuating the ratings that are already there. There have been articles done about this and the college president is not always the person who fills this out – sometimes its his secretary or someone else. One person told a story about how she didn’t know how to answer the questions, so she just asked everyone in the office what they felt.</p>
<p>Actually, you know who would be better to ask questions like this? Faculty members. Professors. They tend to be the ones who know about the interfaculty problems and also the actual academic reputation at other places because those other faculty are their colleagues, and they often work with them. They definitely know about the teaching reputations of other universities’ TAs and professors. They are also a lot less likely to attempt to “cook” the results because they are not administrators.</p>