My son is a DA to the business programs and has narrowed down his undergraduate business school choices to Illinois, Indiana and Minnesota. He wants to major in finance (and will choose a co-business-major) and work in international business consulting. He wants to work in the Chicago market when he graduates. Is Kelley really worth $100K more than Gies over the 4 years? Really appreciate your advice!
UIUC Gies:
Cost after scholarships $24,500/yr
Able to do lots of short study abroad programs (10-12 day business studies), plus a semester abroad. UIUC makes it very affordable by reducing the tuition cost.
Likes that Gies has approx. 700 students vs. Kellyâs 2000 students/class
Heâd like to get out of IL and wishes U of I had more non-IL students
Campus and school spirit not as strong as Kelley and Carlson MN
IU Kelley:
His first choice
Cost after scholarships $49K
Highest ranked business school (Gies/Carlson #19, Kelley #10)
Loves the campus and school spirit
Study abroad costs, even for a short 8-10 day business study program ($3K min), are very high
Worried that the almost 2000 students/class could affect his opportunities/internships
MN Carlson:
Cost after scholarships $40K (plus he received a $3,500 scholarship for study abroad)
Loves the campus, but bus school is far from the main campus where he would live
Ranked close to Gies, but he could attend Gies for $15K less/year
Likes that Carlson has approx. 700 students vs. Kellyâs 2000 students/class
Tougher to land a job in Chicago than if he went to Gies or Kelley
In my opinion, a strong ânoâ. My son chose Gies, even though Kelley wouldâve been cheaper(after scholarships) to attend than Illinois. You can do a search on some of my replies concerning this choice.
The big thing that jumped out at me from the original post is this:
UIUC has outstanding placement in the Chicago area. If it didnât I would understand the hesitation.
Both of my kids graduated from Gies and are living and working (consulting) in the city. Both work with Kelley grads.
The Kelley grads are no more enthusiastic about their college experience than my kids and their Gies friends are about Illinois. The Kelley kids are not offered higher starting salaries. Lastly $100K is a lot of money!
If you have any questions feel free to ask. My daughter (Finance/Supply Chain) graduated in 2017. My son (Finance/Accounting/Hoeft Technology and Management minor) graduated in 2019.
@gemadre I thought of a couple of other things Iâd like to share. As Covid-19 has changed our lives in many unanticipated ways, discuss how the $100K saved will lessen the stress for the entire family. We probably all know families who have extended themselves, never dreaming the worse case (or even just a bad case) scenario would ever materialize. Your business-minded son probably already realizes the $100K difference, not total, doesnât make sense for some extra perceived fun/school spirit or whatever. Ask yourself what you think the extra $100K buys you. Perhaps there is something important to you and your family which justifies the expenditureâŠI donât know you or your situation.
However, this leads me to my other point. My daughter, who graduated from UIUC Gies in 2017, always liked Northwestern. I know she chose Illinois in part, because weâve discussed college and getting an education her whole life. Cost and opportunity were two important aspects in these discussions. The $100K difference for us was not going to put us in debt. But the question we discussed was âis an undergraduate degree worth ~$240K?â. She decided ânoâ, but I could tell a small part of her wished the cost was closer to U of I so it would make sense to go there.
Fast forward 7 years. She has worked almost 3 yrs at a Big 3 consulting firm. She was accepted to Northwesternâs Kellogg School of Management for their full time MBA program this fall. Best partâŠher firm is paying for it!
(Weâll see how Coronavirus affects her experience, but I know sheâll make the best of it.)
Anyway, the reason I added this post is because I (right or wrong) got a vibe from your original post that sent me back to my kidsâ college admission days. I suffered from a slight âmom guiltâ condition. I had confidence my kids would do well at our state flagshipâŠbut I second guessed myself whether I/we were being too frugal when we didnât need to be. Were my kids going to âsufferâ in some way because of the decision? Being on the other side nowâŠboth graduated and workingâŠI believe a lot depends on the kid and the access to opportunities in relation to that individualâs goals. More specifically, both of my kids loved their Gies experience, see benefits when comparing their experience to their Kelley friends and have a strong group of friends working in the Chicago area.
Iâm a Carlson MBA grad, but the choice is easy for meâGies. If he wants to work in Chicago, then itâs the best option. You can tell him that of the extra $100,000 (more like $120,000 after four years), you will give him $50,000 or 1/2 when he graduates to do whatever he wants; grad school, down payment on a house, a car and travel. That way, you both come out ahead.
Thanks for your input, Chuck500. We are weighing the advice that ranking is less important than return on investment. Itâs tough because part of the reason Kelley receives such a high rating is because of their investment banking workshop, which only accepts 60-80 kids/year. My son isnât interested in IB. While he prefers Kelley, he feels that he would not get the ROI that he would at Gies. Hearing everyoneâs advice on CC has really been helpful as well. We really appreciate your input. Congratulations and good luck at MN next year! Itâs an awesome school.
Thank you so much, DG. Itâs good to hear your advice since it looks like you are also trying to decide on b schools. While my son preferred Kelley, his first comment when he saw the scholarships he received was that an education at Kelley was not worth twice that of Gies (despite what his friends with siblings at Kelley say) and that he wouldnât receive the return on the investment.
Itâs tough as a parent because I know that he really wanted to get out of IL and that he loves IN and MNâs campuses. Itâs not that we couldnât afford Kelly or MN, but it just doesnât appear to be a good financial decision. Like @88jm19 said, I am suffering from âmom guiltâ. Her comments were very helpful.
So, DG, what business school did you decide to attend?
I know you were concerned about spirit at UIUC. My S20 had a similar decision to make with Gies & Kelley. Right before the pandemic we went to basketball games at each school. Both schools had sold out games, with tons of spirit, both towns were filled with students having fun. We stayed over at the Illini Union, overlooking the quad, and we were all very impressed with the school and the students. Our decision was different, because we are out of state and Kelley is much cheaper for us.
I (right or wrong) got a vibe from your original post that sent me back to my kidsâ college admission days. I suffered from a slight âmom guiltâ condition. I had confidence my kids would do well at our state flagshipâŠbut I second guessed myself whether I/we were being too frugal when we didnât need to be. Were my kids going to âsufferâ in some way because of the decision?
88jm19 - Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! You read my mind exactly: mom guilt. Yes, we have the funds to send him to IN, but that extra $100K could go towards an MBA (if he doesnât find a firm to pay for it- great job to your daughter) or something else for my kids/his future. While my son prefers IN and MNâs campuses and the Kelley admitted students day was amazing, he said he would get the best ROI at Gies and still have a great career. This indecision isnât from him; itâs from me- mom guilt. I canât tell you how much your advice in the posts to me and in your prior posts to others have helped us.
I would love for my son to talk with your son and daughter at some point. It appears that they participated in the IBC and the Hoeft tech minor, both of which my son is very interested in. He also wants to do as many study abroad classes (where the class travels abroad for 10-12 days to see what they studied in action) as possible and likes that Gies makes it very affordable to do so. He feels he can build the best resume at Gies for the money.
Questions: 1) How did your son and daughter find their professors at Gies? All we have heard is how amazing the Kelley professors are and that they are leaders in their industries who are teaching because they love it. Would you say the same about Gies? 2) Kelley says how invested their professors are in their studentsâ success and Iâm wondering if your son and daughter found this to be true at Gies. 3)Kelley grads say they are way ahead of the kids they work with who attended other business schools and that they are much more prepared for the work environment. Iâd love to hear what your son and daughter say about that as well. 4) John Byrne (Editor from Poets and Quants) gushes about Kelleyâs program and how well it prepares students. I have heard that Kelley better prepares students for interviews, resumes, etc. Did your son and daughter find that Gies also helped them with these things?
Sorry for all of the questions. Thank you so very much for your advice. #mom guilt- ha ha.
Iâm a Carlson MBA grad, but the choice is easy for meâGies.
Sbdad12- Thank you for your advice. I love your idea. Your advice means a lot to us given that you got your MBA from Carlson and understand this decision firsthand. I donât want to be frugal at the expense of my sonâs happiness, but even he agrees that Gies is a much more fiscally responsible decision (and loves your splitting the difference idea!). I just had mom guilt (as perfectly described by 88jm19) and you guys are really helping with that.
P.S. Go Blue!! Everyone in our family attended Michigan, including me. Iâd love to use the money saved to help send my son for an MBA at Ross someday.
NYC2018nyc- Thank you so much. That really helps us because we have heard that none of the kids go to the football games and that there isnât a lot of school spirit. My son is a sports fanatic and couldnât wait to go to a big ten college for this reason. Great to hear!
@gemadre Iâm glad my words have helped you. Iâll try to answer some of your questions, but please keep in mind that Iâm not affiliated with the university and Iâm just a mom sharing my thoughts/opinions.
My kids liked most of their classes, but to be honest while they were attending UIUC it wasnât like they were gushing about classes when we FaceTimed or visited. We asked how things were going and they would respond, âfineâ or âgoodâ. We didnât spend a bunch of time talking about instructionâŠthey mostly talked about their extracurricular activities.
So yesterday I asked my son what he thought about the instruction he received at Gies. He looked at me weirdly. So I pressed him and he went on about how he had some great professors and some not as great ones. He said some were great at teaching the material, while others excelled with facilitating discussions. Some were better than others when making real world connections and were more case-based. Regardless he says he was happy. Overall his professors were knowledgeable and seemed to care.
His response didnât surprise me as a former teacher. Teachers have different strengths and weaknesses. Some personalities âclickâ with some students. Yet the same instructor can be a âmissâ for other students. We are fortunate our kids understood that from a pretty young age. Itâs one of the reasons I like the public school education my kids received.
Iâll add one more thing. Both of my kids had positive interactions with the Gies Dean and Assistant Deans. Through their extracurricular activities my kids got to know them. In my opinion, theyâre doing a great job.
Iâm not sure how a professor shows âinvestmentâ in a studentâs success. If youâre talking office hours and such, of course they are available. I think they get to know students and truly care to varying degrees.
(Warning, a tangent) *However, I think a college-age student should be self-directed. Iâm not big on hand-holding. Through my kids high school careers I monitored their progress, but their actual learning was their responsibilityâŠno excuses. I remember talking with my kids during the middle school years about self-advocating. Why?
Because in our school district parents were encouraged to volunteer at the elementary school. I vividly remember parents coming and going into the school to help with library time, vision screening, computer class, etc. I got to know a lot of other parents this way. It was great. Then the kids moved to middle school and our district discouraged parents from being there. It was a shock for a lot of us. The message was âyour child needs to learn how to self-advocateâ. It wasnât an easy transition, but in hindsight it made a lot of sense and I think the kids benefited from it.*
This actually made me laugh out loud. Itâs an absurd generalization. Iâm sure there must be instances where a Kelley student feels they are more prepared but I would counter there are also Gies grads who feel the same way. If it were true across the board, I would think employers would hire more Kelley grads and perhaps offer higher starting salaries to entice them. I donât think thatâs happeningâŠbut what do I know? Or maybe those Kelley grads were in the IB workshop? It is outstanding for IB.
Iâve gone to the P&Q site, but I personally donât take rankings that seriously. To be honest I have seen a stark disconnect with the ranking of Kelley and the people in our community who attend Kelley and their post-graduation outcomes.
As for preparation for interviews, resumes, etc, BCS (Business Career Services) at Illinois does a very good job. I canât make a comparison with Indiana because I only have my childrenâs experience to draw upon. They had good outcomes with internships and secured desirable post-graduation employment.
I have to run now, but Iâll share a strategy to combat that slight âmom guiltâ thing. First, talk about expectationsâŠyour sonâs as well as your own. Then once the decision is made, try to avoid âwhat ifâ thinking. It can be counterproductive and may make you miserable. Focus on the positives(!) and enjoy the journey.
As a non-midwest family, when my son was looking to apply to business schools in the midwest, Kelley appeared to have higher brand recognition. Among other, that was one of the reasons he applied to Kelley.