All of these guidelines are great but I do want to point out that my daughter got an unconditional offer for St. Andrews in chemistry and Durham in Biomedical Sciences. She did not take calculus, she did get a 5 in IB math SL her junior year. Her first science AP/IB is this year in chemistry and she of course does not have a score yet.
There are no gen ed courses in UK schools to help a kid figure out his major, so you must know exactly what you want to study when you apply. Most 17 year olds just don’t know this at all.
@Massmomm that’s true and worries me but she was also accepted to CalPoly SLO for chemistry where it is virtually impossible to change majors as well.
Actually, this isn’t as much of an issue in educational systems in the UK or many parts of Europe as Gen Eds were taken care of at the college-prep HS or even middle school stages of education.
For that reason, most 17 year olds applying to colleges in the UK/Europe already have a good idea of what they want to study. And if they don’t, it would be considered a sign the student concerned isn’t ready to apply to college yet and s/he’d be encouraged to take a gap year(s) and/or seek out apprenticeships/employment upon graduation.
^ Well, they track early, but that is good for some and not for others.
I’ve stated before that my HS gave me a terrific liberal arts education and that ideally, you’d have that in all HS’s in the US, though we know that just isn’t the case.
Just the fact that kids leave school at 16 in the UK allows a much more nuanced approach to A level education (or IB). You just don’t have that population that remains in the US system to pander to. The 11 plus system if applicable meant the decisions for your future were decided well before you had any idea of future. 16 plus colleges also funnel less academic kids into vocational courses and out of A level or IB, again, freeing up post 16 yr old education to be much more college prep.
^it’s a false premise that European kids “know earlier”. They don’t. They’re funneled into what their grades push them to/their teachers allow them to take, and there’s a definite class bias too. Finally, kids get it wrong all the time or switch paths - studying math for A-Level or specializing in STEM in Gymnasium and then getting into law or humanities at the university level. They have to start from scratch often, but in places where it’s free they figure it out by trial and error and don’t get into debt. At places where they have to pay mistakes are more costly. Also, apprenticeships work differently depending on whether they’re gfor 14-19 year olds, or for students with a “prep school” diploma.
MYOS1634 above is right. Students in the UK are “tracked” very early on and are encouraged (and in many cases, pushed) by their schools to stay in their lane, so to speak. For example, a child identified as better at math at an age we’d consider early middle school is going to be prompted to take more math and science-related courses from that young age onward, with of course certain requisite classes in history, English, a language, etc., but there is always an eye on that child’s supposed aptitudes being the priority. There are certainly kids who buck that and push to take courses in upper grades that are not where they were initially tracked, but by 16, they’re supposed to “know” what they want to do for really the next five years – their two years of A level classes (the equivalent of junior and senior years of HS here but focused on just a few topics) and three years of university (almost entirely in their major subject). There are advantages and disadvantages. Friends of ours in the U.K. say generally folks there see our system of general college courses and choosing majors only after a couple of years as being indecisive, lacking focus and wasting time. Speaking for myself only, I tend to see their system as locking students into a track too early and making students in their later HS years think they can only pursue a fairly narrow path at an age when, if they were exposed to many things, they might make some different (and in the long run, possibly better) choices.
To the parent who posted the initial question: If your son might want a more traditional and varied “college experience” where he gets to try different college courses purely from interest (like taking, say, a particular literature course his freshman or sophomore year solely out of curiosity, even if he’s a science major) – then he could do his undergraduate degree in the U.S. and go to graduate school in the U.K. That’s what I did. Great graduate school experience (London School of Economics and Political Science) and didn’t have to rush through undergrad.
A PP who notes that university in the UK is very hands-off is also correct. Your son would be expected to be very independent both academically and in terms of living on his own (fewer dorms at many universities there so he might have to find housing from the start).
Actually, the two years of A-Levels in the UK is more like the first 2 years of a US university except some of the Gen-Eds also got taken care of at the O-Levels stage of education. It’s a reason why UK and many other national universities’ undergrad programs are closer to US Masters programs here in the US in terms of specialization and academic expectations.
^That’s a myth too. A Levels are nowhere near the first 2 years of a good US university. I’d say they’re the equivalent of 4-5 first year courses, depending on the A-Level.
And O’Levels were abolished about 30 years ago, and replaced with CGSE’s. And that’s roughly at the level of the US upper-track honors 9th/10th grades, below AP, and that’s if the kid aren’t in the Foundation level which is like regular/remedial secondary classes in the US.
Call the Educational Testing Service about how you can register for AP exams if your school doesn’t offer them. They will direct you how to apply to take them.
Yep, A-levels are more like AP’s (though tougher than the “easy” AP’s) and the 2 years of college are more like CC.
Oh, and as I’ve noted elsewhere, undergrad in England is kind of like grad-school-lite.
Definitely something to consider.
A-Levels in the UK is more like the first 2 years of a US university>>>>>>>>>>
Phht.
However, even here, there’s a bit more specialization than what’s expected in a US college prep HS or the first 2 years of college. And I would think the A-levels are tougher considering most college-bound UK students focus on 3-4 of them in areas closely related to the majors they plan to pursue at university.
For instance, you’d rarely see a student seeking to study a humanities field taking Physics or Math or conversely, someone seeking to study a STEM field to select History or English Lit for one of his/her A-Levels.
Very different from students taking gen-eds here in the US. In many other parts of the world, gen-eds were considered taken care of earlier in college-prep HSs or sometimes at even earlier educational stages.
Interesting comments on this thread. My dd was in the UK for Year 8 and I can guarantee you she was immensely behind the 7th graders at her current international IB school, particularly in maths. Of course, this may not have been the case had she attended a good grammar school instead of a second-rate iGCSE school. Her best friends who are currently at an Oxbridge-feeder 6th form doing their A-levels have quite the easy life compared to my daughter doing IB courses. They get As for a 56% whilst my dd would get a D or even an F. Dd attends school every day, every class; they rarely attend lectures. They’re taking three courses in what they’re passionate about whilst dd has to struggle through the full range of courses + all the other IB extras. They’ll get into Cambridge, no doubt, whilst Cambridge demands 6/6/7 and more from IB students. Doesn’t seem the least bit fair to me.
To the OP, there are plenty of Liberal Arts courses in the UK now, including Kings, Warwick (very popular with international kids), Bristol, Regents. There’s also Richmond, the American university in London. Also, St. Andrews has a ton of American students, as does UCD (University College Dublin).
All courses in the UK list very specific entry requirements for every country of origin. Find the course, then look up the entry requirements. The schools give very good, specific info. You will generally find that the science courses require a couple of SAT Subject Tests in related subjects at 600-650 or greater. GPAs are generally not too high, usually between 3.0-3.3, but competitive courses will demand at least 3.7. Some schools will ask only for 12th grade GPA (this seems very fair to me considering what I’ve said above about A-levels). All of the entry requirements are guidelines only, though most schools will have a minimum entry requirement.
My advice would be to send your son for a high school semester/year abroad – or at the very least to spend a summer. It’s one thing to love the books/movies/TV shows, it’s another, entirely (!), to live there. We lasted one year. After that my husband asked his supervisor if he could work remotely, and we moved to France – and we had spent the previous ten years in the developing world.
This is going back a few years but this was my 2 year A level history syllabus. British history 1660-1713 domestic and foreign policy, European history 1550 to around 1796, we had to know domestic and foreign policy of Sweden, Russia, Prussia, Austro-Hungarian Empire, France, Spain, Portugal and Italy and how they interacted. Now that’s a lot of material, we were taught in great detail the policies of the major figures in history Gustavus Adolphus in Sweden, Peter and Catherine the Great of Russia, Marie Theresa Austro-Hungary, kings of France and Spain and Frederick King of Prussia. We skimmed Italy and ignored Portugal… exams were 2 papers of 3 hrs each, of 4 essay questions from a choice of 10. Imagine my distress when opening the European paper and finding a question on some chap called Pombol and a question on bloody architecture through the centuries. Now I know I am going sound like an old fogey but I dont think the rigour of Ap’s were anything like that and I am sure A levels look nothing like they were in the Edwardian era when I took them.
Update: I’m doing my own queries at the moment for dd, so just received a reply from a mid-tier uni in England. For dd’s course they’re asking for SAT Subject Tests in related subjects at 600/500/500 + her US High School Diploma + Grade 12 grades in English and Maths at 3.0. They would also accept an IB HL Science at 6 + one other HL subject + one SAT Subject at 500. All this is the minimum acceptable. It does not mean she would be competitive with such grades.
So you see, it’s all very flexible!
@Kardinalschnitt: If you’re a full-pay International (not UK/EU), minimum acceptable is likely enough outside of Oxbridge and LSE.
BTW, the English grading system is quite different. Yes, 50+% isn’t bad under that system, but have you seen what answers to what questions get those marks? Without knowing the grading difficulty, I don’t think you can compare with IB.
@PurpleTitan Nope, we’re EU. I actually thought you might comment about that and was going to clarify. Scotland/Ireland would clearly be much less expensive but England still might be slightly less than many out-of-states in the US (we are citizens there, too, but OOS everywhere). Can’t convince child to go to France for a couple hundred/year. Working on it!
Thanks, actually, for the tip on grades. Dd said she was having a virtual shouting match with her best friend last night over the grades. He was saying he has 50+ exams to pass in maths whilst she was saying yes, but it’s her grades over four years that are looked at (for college in US). She said she got quite annoyed! 