UMich LSA vs Penn SEAS

“Class sizes are not likely to be similar at Michigan and Penn, actually. At Mich, 48.1% of classes have fewer than 20 students. At Penn nearly 70% of classes have 20 or fewer students. Meanwhile at Mich, 17.6% of classes have over 100 students compared to only 10.6% at Penn.”

PennCAS2014, the 17.6% and 10.6% of classes at Michigan and Penn have over 50, not 100 students.

At any rate, while it may seem that Penn classes are much smaller than Michigan classes if you look at classes with fewer than 20 students, things even out nicely if you were to include classes with 20-29 students. Overall, 79% of the classes at Michigan have fewer than 30 students, compared to 83% at Penn. I never denied that classes at Penn are smaller. All I said is that the difference is not significant.

"Additionally, while the programs mentioned are indeed popular, Penn often offers both large and small sections of intro classes to ensure that students who want to take intro courses in a more intimate setting are offered that opportunity. "

That’s the same at Michigan. Larger lectures will typically be broken down into smaller discussion sections. Those sections usually have anywhere between 20-25 students.

“Additionally, the student to faculty ratio at Michigan is 15 to 1 compared to Penn’s student to faculty ratio of 6 to 1.”

I see Penn fooled you with their misleading data. Michigan is honest enough to include graduate students who are enrolled in colleges that also enroll undergraduate students…is Penn? :wink:

Seriously, in order for Penn to come up with its 6:1 ratio, it had to include 9,500 students in its calculation. That’s very suspicious considering that Penn has 10,000+ undergraduate students and another 8,000 graduate students enrolled at Wharton, the SEAS, Nursing and other programs/colleges that enroll undergraduate students. If Penn calculated its student to faculty ratio like Michigan does, by including graduate students, its student to faculty ratio would be 12:1, not 6:1. And omitting graduate students from the ratio is very misleading, since graduate students drain faculty resources as much as undergraduate students.

“To me those were large differences when I chose Penn over Mich (for the college, not for engineering).”

Only there differences aren’t large at all…not because Penn isn’t exceptional, but because Michigan is also exceptional. Unfortunately, statistics can be manipulated to make it seem like there is a large difference between Michigan and Penn, but the differences are in fact insignificant.

“And, while it’s probably(?) true that if you lop off the bottom quartile at Michigan you would have a student body with numerically similar standardized test scores to the average students at Penn, you would also be cutting out nearly as many Michigan students as there are freshman at Penn… It’s a lot of people to pretend like they don’t exist.”

Who is pretending they do not exist? To you, those students may be unworthy and may be an embarrassment, but they are very much an active part of the Michigan community. They enrich the academic and social environment. Many of them are gifted in other ways, be it artistically, musically, athletically etc… The point I was making is that overall, the Michigan student body is intellectually switched-on and the learning environment at the University is vibrant and rewarding.

“Overall, both institutions have good brands with high research activity-- the undergrad experience at each, however, will differ markedly.”

I disagree completely. Michigan and Penn actually offer similar undergraduate experiences. They are obviously different in many respects, but not in ways that makes one better than the other. It goes without saying that Penn is exceptional, but there is no need to try and make it out to be superior to one of its peers. If you were to fairly analyze Michigan, I am not so sure you would dismiss it so easily.

@PennCAS2014 “Penn as a WHOLE is considered a target school for every NYC firm. Nobody can come to Penn and only interview with Wharton students since all Penn undergrads are given the same opportunities to meet with and interview with the most elite finance/banking/etc. etc etc. firms. And while Wharton may be what draws these firms to Penn initially, they consistently hire students from both the College AND engineering in substantial numbers.”

This is absolutely true. This idea that Penn is Wharton and the three dwarves is not an on-campus view at Penn. Top students in CAS or SEAS would usually be top students in Wharton and vice versa. Firms firms are required to interview candidates across schools.

@alexandre It looks to me like there is a somewhat significant salary difference between Penn and Michigan for computer science. What are your thoughts about that?

Mich COE is at $83k
Penn SEAS is at $98k

Much2learn, Michigan’s latest report was published in 2014-2015 for students graduating in 2013-2014. Penn’s latest report was published in 2015 for students graduating in 2014-2015. For the same time frame, the difference between the starting salaries of CS majors at Michigan and Penn is not as pronounced ($83k vs $90k). There could be various reasons for the small difference in pay (Michigan may not be adding signing bonuses, the firms that recruit Michigan students may be offering more generous stock option plans etc…). As a rule, CS majors from all top universities are paid roughly similar salaries. There won’t be a significant difference in pay between the various programs.

Woops- that’s right- it’s about classes over 50 students.

I’m curious about where you get the data regarding classes between 20-29 students since US news only seems to report 1-20, 21-49, and over 50 students. Even so, having more consistently smaller classes with other students who have more consistently, across the board, performed at the highest levels of academic success throughout their educational careers is important to some students. And I think you’ve misunderstood me in that I would never be “embarrassed” of the lowest academic performers at a college and I definitely do not think they’re “unworthy.” I very much appreciate the vibrancy they add to Michigan-- many, many, many, MANY of my friends numbered among the lowest performers at Michigan because a TON of kids from my high school go there (about 30 per graduating class). I was merely saying that, while it’s true that the top of Michigan’s class will be somewhat numerically similar to the average Penn student, that doesn’t mean the other students who you must disregard to make the comparison, don’t exist. And your comparing only the best students at Michigan to make it seem more comparable to Penn erases their experiences and contributions, which, as you say, is an integral part of what makes Michigan special.

Additionally, your numbers are way off for Penn’s student to faculty ratio. Unless I’m mistaken, they do, in fact, include graduate and undergraduate students. And if we were to only include full time undergraduate/graduate students as well as full time faculty, the student to faculty ratio would be even lower. But the 6:1 ratio is quite accurate from the data offered (dividing the total number of students at Penn by the total number of non-adjunct faculty). In contrast, Michigan reports a 15:1 student to faculty ratio even on their undergraduate admissions page.
http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts
http://admissions.umich.edu/about-u-m/faculty

Furthermore you are misunderstanding what I mean when I say Penn offers smaller sections for intro classes. While almost all larger lectures (meaning more than 30 students in the College) will have break-out groups called recitations to supplement the lecture classes with a discussion based component, Penn will also frequently offer an entirely separate, smaller intro class covering the same content for students who only want to learn in a more intimate environment. Those classes are not attached to lectures; they are standalone classes composed of fewer students. It’s a good solution for students interested in Biology, for example, who don’t learn best in a lecture. It depends on the semester and demand but it’s quite common.

Anyway, those differences were pretty huge to me. I wanted to be in an environment with students who had nearly all performed at a similar level to me academically and extracurricular-y, I wanted a much smaller student to faculty ratio. I wanted to be at a school that was comparable in recruitment to only the Yales and Stanfords of the world. I don’t think I ever passed an overall judgment on what is better- I simply said these were large differences that mattered to me in my decision making process.

Finally I can only assume Penn’s peers are those that they would consider their peers (http://chronicle.com/interactives/peers-network). Schools like Penn, Yale, Stanford and a couple of other similar universities only list 10 schools as peers-- so that’s really all I have to work with when using the term.

“I’m curious about where you get the data regarding classes between 20-29 students since US news only seems to report 1-20, 21-49, and over 50 students.”

The common data set, section I, offers this level of detail.

“Even so, having more consistently smaller classes with other students who have more consistently, across the board, performed at the highest levels of academic success throughout their educational careers is important to some students.”

I don’t disagree. It is vitally important to me too. My point is that Penn does not separate itself from Michigan in this domain. Classes at Penn are smaller, and the students at Penn are, on average, stronger than those at Michigan. I never denied that. But what I am saying is that the gap is not worth noting. Classes are only marginally smaller at Penn, and 1-1.5 point more on the ACT or 30 points more per SAT section does not make Penn superior to Michigan.

“Additionally, your numbers are way off for Penn’s student to faculty ratio. Unless I’m mistaken, they do, in fact, include graduate and undergraduate students.”

I am not way off (I never am :wink: ), and you are indeed mistaken. Look at Section I of the common data set. Michigan includes 37,000 (out of its total 43,000 students) in its calculation of the student to faculty ratio (which includes 10,000 graduate students). Penn includes only 9,500 students (out of its total 21,500 students). Universities are supposed to exclude graduate students enrolled in exclusively graduate programs (such as Law, Medicine, Public Health etc…), but include graduate students in colleges and programs that have a mix of graduate and undergraduate students (such as Arts and Sciences, Engineering, Business etc…). Clearly Penn is only including undergraduate students and omitting thousands of graduate students enrolled in CAS, Wharton, Nursing and SEAS. Very few universities can honestly boast of having a 6:1 ratio. In most instances, it is impossible and completely wasteful and unsustainable. At best, a university will have a 10:1 ratio, but even that is highly unusual. Penn’s ratio, if it calculates it as Michigan does, would be well over 10:1. And since you are adamant on comparing Michigan and Penn’s student to faculty ratios because it means so much to you, you really ought to compare apples to apples and include graduate students in the calculation of Penn’s ratio.

“Anyway, those differences were pretty huge to me. I wanted to be in an environment with students who had nearly all performed at a similar level to me academically and extracurricular-y, I wanted a much smaller student to faculty ratio. I wanted to be at a school that was comparable in recruitment to only the Yales and Stanfords of the world. I don’t think I ever passed an overall judgment on what is better- I simply said these were large differences that mattered to me in my decision making process.”

You can say the same of Michigan. There are no “large differences” between Penn and Michigan. Not in terms of class sizes, student to faculty ratio, resources, academics, student quality, professional and graduate school placement etc… Those two universities are peers. Like I said, you are completely underestimating Michigan.

“Finally I can only assume Penn’s peers are those that they would consider their peers. Schools like Penn, Yale, Stanford and a couple of other similar universities only list 10 schools as peers-- so that’s really all I have to work with when using the term.”

Your source (Chronicle) seems good, but limited. For example, private universities only include private universities…or no peers at all, as is the case with Columbia and Princeton. I was referring to the US News Peer Assessment score, which assigns Michigan and Penn identical peer assessment ratings (4.4/5.0). That is not based on what one university assigns as its own peers, but rather, how hundreds of university presidents and deans rate peer institutions. As far as academe is concerned, the way the top academics view universities is fairly clear; Michigan and Penn are peer institutions.

No you’re still wrong, unfortunately. First of all there are a million flaws with calculating Penn’s student : faculty ratio according to CDS standards that don’t account for the way Penn as an institution operates. Because of the One University Policy, The best way to calculate Penn’s student to faculty ratio is to take the ~24,000 total students and to divide them by the ~4,500 faculty. That would result in a student to faculty ratio of just under 6 to 1. That being said, Penn’s numbers are accurate according to CDS standards too. When you subtract the number of students in stand alone grad programs from the total number of students and you account for part time students in the way that they’ve indicated you should account for them, you get about the same numbers they’ve recorded. But let’s be EXTRA generous and take the total student population (21,395) and subtract only student populations from schools that don’t have undergraduate components at all, allowing those programs within grad schools like Fels in SAS or Lauder in Wharton that are truly grad-only and have no overlap by CDS standards with undergraduate students or instruction, to remain in the calculation. From the total 21,395, you must now subtract the total student enrollments of Annenberg, Dental, GSE, Design, Law, Med, SP2, and Vet, leaving you with 14,604 graduate and undergrad students in SAS, Wharton, Nursing, and Engineering. Then subtract the 282 part time UG students and add back 1/3 of the students or 94 of them for a total of 14,416 (we can just include the part time grad students in those schools (and the other schools’ PT grad students since they aren’t disaggregated here though they should be subtracted) as full time for convenience and to keep it as generously inclusive as possible). Now divide those 14,416 students by the 1,667 total faculty they record on the CDS and you still have a student to faculty ratio of about 8 to 1 – which is nearly half of Michigan’s 15 to 1. Again, I don’t recommend using the CDS format because of the one University Policy – but even by the loosest interpretation of the CDS standards, you’re still not right on the student to faculty ratio question; Penn’s is much lower. (grad enrollment by school can be found here: http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts)

Also, perhaps 70 points on the SAT don’t mean a lot to you but everyone has different standards. I can’t impose my standards on to you, I can just say that I wanted to be surrounded by students who had consistently performed at the highest levels in their academic careers and to students like myself, that meant (in part) students who didn’t think 70 points on the SAT was no big difference. Now a 31 on the ACT and a 32.5 on the ACT seem more similar until you remember that it’s only graded out of 36. With only 36 points on the table, the difference between 30, 31, 32 and 33 is magnified. Either way, the fact remains that 75% of Michigan students (according to their CDS) scored a 33 or lower meaning that nearly 75% of Michigan students would be ‘below average’ (a score of 32.5) at Penn by that metric. Pretty big difference there again.

So yeah, student to faculty ratio is much lower at Penn, class sizes are consistently much smaller at Penn, and students have more consistently performed much better on standardized tests at Penn. Again, Michigan students do well looking for jobs but the most elite firms only recruit at Penn and its peers. Even when you compare Ross to Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences, Penn is placing more students (Only from A&S) at places like Goldman than Michigan’s actual business school (In 2014 Mich placed 9 undergrads in full time positions at Goldman compared to Penn’s College of arts and sciences placing between 10-15 students in the same year). And in terms of grad school, Penn students’ most commonly attended grad schools don’t look all that similar to Michigan’s… you can look at the law schools attended as an example
https://michiganross.umich.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/Community/pdfs/recruiters_guide_lr_f.pdf
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/CASFinalReport14.pdf
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/20142015lawstats.php
https://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/academicplanning/prelaw/statistics

The US News peer assessment is irrelevant for a multitude of reason some of which include the fact that the people who fill them out often have no idea what’s going on at another university, they’re usually just administrative assistants who don’t know much about higher education in general but to whom this task is delegated, the sample size is unreliable to put it politely, and universities have a vested interest in the outcome. So those certainly aren’t “top academics” considering their peers- not that they’d actually be qualified to accurately assess a university in its totality either. Additionally, two peer assessment scores can be similarly high for a million reasons that have nothing to do with the similarities of the universities-- it’s not actually an indicator of which schools are peers but rather it is a reflection of what “peers” (defined by US news as other administrators at ALL of the other universities in the country on the list) think of the school (but again, not really for the reasons stated before and many others). As for the IPEDs Department of Education data (on which the chronicle article is based) yes, Columbia chooses not to fill out their peer institution lists (though you’ll notice Michigan still isn’t listed among Columbia’s suggested peers in its IPED feedback report)-- but schools like Penn, Yale, Chicago and Stanford did choose peers based on actual data and they all line up pretty well. Michigan is an obviously wonderful institution-- but as you can see, it’s not among Penn’s listed peers.

Im pretty much done as we’re going in circles here. Penn’s student to faculty ratio is much lower, it has a much larger percentage of meaningfully smaller classes, it has job outcomes and grad school placement rates that are dissimilar to Mich’s, and it is institutionally most similar to the other ivies, Stanford, Chicago, and MIT. At the end of the day, I’m STILL not passing judgment as you seem to be intent on forcing me to do, I’m just saying that those are pretty big deals to me. I was very happy to have been accepted to Michigan my senior year; having been accepted in early October meant I didn’t have to apply anywhere ranked below 28 (at the time) and I’d still have a solid university to attend even if I was rejected everywhere else. When it came time to choose where to go, I was really only seriously considering Penn, Columbia and Yale-- schools that were remarkably similar in all of the ways that mattered to me and very different in the ways that matter less.

If you want to look at class sizes, why not see if they are listed on each school’s online class schedule?

https://csprod.dsc.umich.edu/psc/csprodpa/EMPLOYEE/HRMS/c/COMMUNITY_ACCESS.M_SR_SC_CLS_SRCH.GBL?bCDC=y&PAGE=M_SR_SS_ACD_GRP
http://www.upenn.edu/registrar/timetable/

Thanks for all the replies! Definitely enjoyed and learned a lot from the passionate arguments! So, after thinking for a long time, I decided I’m going to PENN!! Thanks again everyone!!

Good luck CollegeCrazy97. Penn is a great school and based on your costs, the smarter choice.

You made the right decision CollegCrazy. You can never go wrong with Penn. It is truly an exceptional university.

Thanks a lot again!! And Alexandre, if you don’t mind me saying, I’m truly impressed at your openness at appreciating Penn after so valiantly defending UMich. Takes heart. Both are definitely amazing schools though! ^:)^

“I’m truly impressed at your openness at appreciating Penn after so valiantly defending UMich.”

I enjoy a good debate, but doing so will not diminish, or alter, my outlook on any given university. Penn is awesome, no matter what anyone says. You are going to have the best four years ever…make them count.

Thank you for those kind words, Alexandre!!