So, I’m choosing between these two for Computer Science/ Engineering. There’s also a possibility that I may also pursue a second major in Economics, but that’s not clear yet. Which of these schools will give me a good technical education as well as a broad, flexible degree, so I have options of entering EITHER Wall St or Silicon Valley after undergrad? I’m currently leaning towards Silicon Valley, but it may change over the course of the next 3 years. Another important factor for me is student quality and the “wholesome” undergraduate experience.
Financial aid:
At Penn i have to pay 26K. At Umich OOS: 43K(Michigan didn’t give any aid)
HOWEVER, my financial aid at Penn will reduce next year because my dad will make much more money this year than last year, when he was unemployed for almost 7 months. Also, I will become instate at Michigan next year as my parents will move to Michigan this summer, if I choose UMich. So at worst I’ll pay OOS at Umich for only one year. Lastly, I would go from home at UMich, and stay in the dorms at Penn. FYI, i prefer dorms but I guess that’s a minor factor…
Please help me decide.
You need to be sure about instate tuition at Michigan in year two. If you pay OOS in year one it is tough to turn that into IS for the rest of your undergrad. You should talk to the university about that. That said, CS at Michigan is great both in LSA and Engineering.
Thanks for the reply!! Well, my dad called up UMich, and they said that there was a 90-95% chance of us becoming instate as long as my dad establishes a permanent residence and pays taxes to Michigan. So I hope that works out if I choose Michigan. But are you saying choose MIchigan over Penn?? If yes, please do tell me your reasons.
I would go with Penn if you want the Street option.
At UMich, the Street is less likely if you’re not in Ross.
Decisions weren’t due already?
Thank you for the reply. Decisions are due on the 24th of this month. I understand that Wall street may be less likely from Michigan, but since I’m more interested in tech, my question is rather; How likely would Silicon Valley be if I went to Penn?? Also, is Michigan’s comparatively larger class sizes going to be a problem? I’d like to have some personal attention with the professors.
Both should be fine with tech/Silicon Valley. So I don’t see where UMich has the advantage, other than in B10 football and basketball.
PurpleTitan, the OP should have little trouble getting into Ross. Although Ross admits only 40%, it should be noted that most of the students that don’t make it are marginal, sub 3.4 students. Michigan students with 3.7+ GPAs should have little trouble getting in.
A double major in Business from Ross and CS from LSA is manageable. Such a degree would be as good an option as Penn SEAS given CollegeCrazy97’s interests…possible even better. That being said, cost of attendance worries me, and he really needs to ascertain whether or not he will be eligible for in-state tuition come junior year. If so, and the cost of attendance is no longer a concern, I think Michigan is as good an option as Penn.
Personally, I wouldn’t chance it.
You will have an excellent chance at Silicon Valley from Penn. I will be challenging, but will also offer excellent opportunities. If you are a strong student, this is a no brainer.
PurpleTitan, there is no risk. I have known many students from Dubai who went to Michigan without being preadmited to Ross. 100% of them got in. The students admitted from OOS and international schools are usually very strong academically and typically do very well at Michigan. Since the OP also got into Penn, I would assume her/his Michigan acceptance was no fluke and that he/she is a good student.
I would go for fit, assuming Michigan residence can be established in 2 years.
Much2learn, I don’t see how this is a “no-brainer”. Penn is a solid school, certainly on par with Michigan, but it is not better. If the OP feels more drawn to Michigan, going there would be the “no-brainer”.
Michigan is an excellent school and its best students are probably comparable, but the average Michigan student is not. Penn has a much broader base of applicants to draw from, and that allows them to have a very strong class top to bottom. There is a reason that the percent of cross admits that choose Michigan over Penn is quite small, unless there is a significant cost difference.
In addition to access to Silicon Valley jobs, Penn SEAS grads also compete with Wharton grads for Wall Street jobs, if that is your interest. There are also specialized majors like NETS and DMD, and dual degrees available. Penn students tend to have broader interests and want to take classes outside of CS. Penn’s One University policy allows students to do that. Penn SEAS students also have the opportunity to sub-matriculate to a Master’s.
“Michigan is an excellent school and its best students are probably comparable, but the average Michigan student is not. Penn has a much broader base of applicants to draw from, and that allows them to have a very strong class top to bottom.”
I think you are overstating things Much2learn. Michigan and Penn actually have similar applicant pools and admit similar students. Michigan is significantly larger, and therefore admits more students. Admittedly, as a result of that, Penn is more selective and enrolls a slightly stronger student body overall. That being said, the difference is not as pronounced as you make it out to be…certainly not enough to justify your “no brainer” comment. It is not merely Michigan"s “best students who are probably comparable”. The average GPA, Class rank, SAT and ACT of their respective freshmen classes overlap quite a lot.
“There is a reason that the percent of cross admits that choose Michigan over Penn is quite small, unless there is a significant cost difference.”
There are many reasons for this, but none of them should affect the OP’s decision. Students do not choose Penn because it is a better university, since they are essentially identically academically. Many students choose Penn because they assume the Ivy League affiliation makes Penn better, or will offer them some sort of edge. Sadly, that is not the case. Others choose Penn because they have no choice; over 50% of Penn’s freshmen class were ED applicants. Penn is also more generous with financial aid, especially for OOS students. That is certainly the case with CollegeCrazy97. Finally, many choose Penn over Michigan for the best reason of all; it is a better fit. Hopefully, all students choose universities of equal calibre (and the two universities considered in this thread are peers) based on financial, academic and social fit. I have known many students who have chosen Michigan over peers such as Berkeley, Cornell, Northwestern, Penn etc… It is not that uncommon. And since joining the Common Application in 2011, Michigan has become significantly more selective. It is quite common now for applicants that are rejected by Michigan to receive acceptances from Penn.
“In addition to access to Silicon Valley jobs, Penn SEAS grads also compete with Wharton grads for Wall Street jobs, if that is your interest. There are also specialized majors like NETS and DMD, and dual degrees available. Penn students tend to have broader interests and want to take classes outside of CS. Penn’s One University policy allows students to do that. Penn SEAS students also have the opportunity to sub-matriculate to a Master’s.”
Now you are actually giving facts which could help the OP decide. But your facts are restricted to Penn. Michigan also offers an abundance of unique and excellent options that can help students personalize their experience. That’s because like Penn students, Michigan students also have very diverse and broader interests. Michigan offers Engineering and CS students an entrepreneurship concentration, Ross offers a minor, there are interdisciplinary majors such as PPE, and Michigan is flexible in allowing students to take multiple classes, and outright double major, across multiple colleges.
Finally, at Michigan, Wall Street firms tend to hire mostly Ross students since, for the most part, their campus events are open only to Ross students (CoE and LSA have separate events, but they are not nearly as substantial). In this regard, Michigan varies from Penn, where all students, regardless of college or major, may apply for interviews when companies recruit on campus. However, from what I have seen, the vast majority of Wall Street placements tend to be Wharton students anyway. Penn is not materially different than Michigan in this respect. Most CAS and SEAS students that land jobs with Wall Street firms are, for the most part, enrolled in the Huntsman and Fisher programs.
But if the OP really wants to work for a Wall Street firm, and has the profile to do so (which usually includes a 3.7+ GPA), he/she should have no trouble getting into Ross. Ross students are highly recruited by Wall Street firms. And as a Ross student, he/she should still be able to double major in CS, and have excellent access to Silicon Valley as well.
Both universities are excellent and will serve the CollegeCrazy97 equally well. If Penn is cheaper to attend, then I agree that it is a “no brainer”. Otherwise, there is nothing obvious about this decision. I recommend going for fit.
First off, thanks a lot for all the amazing opinions! This decision is only getting harder, lol!
Alexandre, thank you for all the positive info about UMich, but there was one statement you made which I’m not sure about. How could Michigan lsa and Ross be better than Penn seas and Wharton? Isn’t Wharton the number one business school in the US? Also, like I mentioned before, at the undergrad level, is like to really get to know my professors. Many friends of mine have told me horror stories about the giant class sizes at UMich… Is it really that much of a problem?
Much2learn and PurpleTitan, you both seem to know about Penn engineering a lot. Well Penn engineering prepare me well for grad school should I choose to go down that route? Some people tell me that engineering majors at Penn mostly go to finance and not traditional engineering jobs or masters programs… Thanks again for your replies!
Both would for grad school. You can (and should) try to look up job placement reports. I’m pretty certain SEAS/Penn’s is out there on the web. Not sure about UMich.
Purple, I have looked at the job reports, and I must say, I’m very impressed by Penn. I’m leaning towards Penn. Will post final decision in a few days.
Cheers!
CollegeCrazy97, I did not say that Ross is better than Wharton. I do not recall saying Michigan was better than Penn in any way. I said the two universities are peers. But I did not realize you were admitted into Wharton. Wharton is definitely the best undergraduate business program in the nation. Ross is among the top 3 or 4 programs in the nation, and certainly does a great job placing graduates in Wall Street firms, but Wharton has the advantage in this domain.
As for class sizes, there are no nightmares that I can think of that are restricted to Michigan. Classes that are large at Michigan will likely be large at Penn. They may be slightly larger, but neither school is known for having faculties that are overly approachable. You are going to have large intro level classes at both universities, mid-sized classes at the intermediate level and small classes at the advanced level. Given its popularity as a major, Economics classes will tend to be large at most universities.
Ross placement report: http://michiganross.umich.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/Community/pdfs/15_recruiters_guide.pdf (pages 11-15 and 30 onwards)
CoE placement (CS LSA majors have complete access to the CoE career office).
http://career.engin.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2014/01/companylist.pdf
http://career.engin.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2014/12/annualreport.pdf
Wharton definitely has excellent Wall Street placement, bur Ross certainly holds its own. Engineers from both schools will be well recruited as well. I don’t think career prospects will vary that much either way.
Alexandre, I have not been admitted to Wharton. Nor have I to Ross. I simply said, that if I do choose to do a second major in Economics or Finance, Penn would be the better bet, because of Wharton. With the One University Policy, I won’t have trouble taking Wharton classes at Penn. I also understand from you that taking classes at Ross wouldn’t be too difficult as long as I maintain a decent GPA. TBH, my primary focus is their engineering schools. I just want to make sure that engineering at Penn isn’t worse than Michigan should I choose it. I also want to make sure Michigan isn’t too crowded and the average student slightly subpar(compared to Penn), should I choose Michigan instead.I completely understand that the two schools are almost equal academically, and that fit should be my basis for choice. I will post my final decision in a few days! Thanks! 
Note that both Michigan and Penn have actual economics departments and courses that are not in their business divisions.
“Alexandre, I have not been admitted to Wharton. Nor have I to Ross. I simply said, that if I do choose to do a second major in Economics or Finance, Penn would be the better bet, because of Wharton. With the One University Policy, I won’t have trouble taking Wharton classes at Penn.”
CollegeCrazy97, I appreciate Penn’s One University Policy, but that does not mean that Econ CAS students are given the same attention or consideration as Wharton students. I would say that Penn CAS students have better prospects with financial institutions than Michigan LSA students, but by that reckoning, Ross students will have better prospects with financial institutions than Penn CAS students. Ross is almost as much of a target as Wharton.
“I also understand from you that taking classes at Ross wouldn’t be too difficult as long as I maintain a decent GPA.”
Again, taking classes at Ross (or Wharton) is one thing, being a graduate of their programs is another. If you go to Michigan, you have a very realistic chance of getting into Ross, assuming you maintain a 3.7 GPA. But simply taking classes at Ross will not greatly enhance your chances. You actually have to get into the program and graduate from it.
“TBH, my primary focus is their engineering schools. I just want to make sure that engineering at Penn isn’t worse than Michigan should I choose it.”
In Engineering, Michigan is better than Penn. Not that it matters since most Penn engineers (nit including CS and systems majors) have little interest in careers in engineering. Most choose careers in consulting and finance. However, your interest in CS, and Michigan and Penn are roughly equal in this field. As such, in your case, Penn would not be worse than Michigan.
“I also want to make sure Michigan isn’t too crowded and the average student slightly subpar(compared to Penn), should I choose Michigan instead.”
Michigan is not too crowded, but it is large, and classes will also tend to be larger than at Penn, although not by a significant margin. Like I said, classes that are large at Michigan will tend to be large at Penn. Most classes you will take at both universities will be small-medium. The student body at Penn will be slightly stronger, but again, not noticeably so. In terms of high school curricula and rigor, GPA and class rank, Michigan students will be identical to Penn students. Penn will admit students with higher test scores. The mean ACT at Michigan is 31, while at Penn it is 32.5. The mean SAT at Michigan is 1400, while at Penn it is 1470. If you knock off the bottom quartile at Michigan, you would essentially have a student body that is indistinguishable from Penn’s.
Class sizes are not likely to be similar at Michigan and Penn, actually. At Mich, 48.1% of classes have fewer than 20 students. At Penn nearly 70% of classes have 20 or fewer students. Meanwhile at Mich, 17.6% of classes have over 100 students compared to only 10.6% at Penn. Additionally, while the programs mentioned are indeed popular, Penn often offers both large and small sections of intro classes to ensure that students who want to take intro courses in a more intimate setting are offered that opportunity. Not every student seeks out smaller classes as some prefer less accountability in their intro courses (though they’ll still have smaller recitations paired with their larger lectures) but the opportunity exists. Additionally, the student to faculty ratio at Michigan is 15 to 1 compared to Penn’s student to faculty ratio of 6 to 1. To me those were large differences when I chose Penn over Mich (for the college, not for engineering).
And, while it’s probably(?) true that if you lop off the bottom quartile at Michigan you would have a student body with numerically similar standardized test scores to the average students at Penn, you would also be cutting out nearly as many Michigan students as there are freshman at Penn… It’s a lot of people to pretend like they don’t exist.
And just a reminder, Penn as a WHOLE is considered a target school for every NYC firm. Nobody can come to Penn and only interview with Wharton students since all Penn undergrads are given the same opportunities to meet with and interview with the most elite finance/banking/etc. etc etc. firms. And while Wharton may be what draws these firms to Penn initially, they consistently hire students from both the College AND engineering in substantial numbers. Some of these firms will actually only recruit at Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale and Stanford, so you are definitely put in a more advantageous position when it comes to recruitment at Penn as compared to other schools where the most elite firms won’t even stop by for an info session. I benefited greatly from this unique opportunity and I know many of my peers did as well.
As for engineering, at the undergrad level I think you’ll be more than satisfied with the education and recruitment opportunities. Overall, both institutions have good brands with high research activity-- the undergrad experience at each, however, will differ markedly.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-michigan-9092
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-pennsylvania-3378
http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/student-profile
http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/whatpennlooksfor/incoming-class-profile