No, it is random.
Is a 32 on the ACT a “good” score for out-of-state residents? Or would it be better to take the ACT again in an effort to bump up the score?
According to the website: [Six-year</a> Program Application Requirements](<a href=“http://www.med.umkc.edu/med_admissions/six-year_application.html]Six-year”>http://www.med.umkc.edu/med_admissions/six-year_application.html)
“The average accepted regional or out-of-state applicant has an ACT score of 30 and a rank within the top 5 percent of the graduating class.”
So you should be ok.
To the person in a previous thread, forget the username, asking about the computer requirement, it’s not only on the online application but in the link above as well. Make sure you have had or will have these below esp. the last one (It can be any computer class, not just computer science, I took AP Computer Science I, but it doesn’t have to be that):
<ul>
<li>Graduation from an accredited U.S. high school with curriculum including: (one unit equals one year in class)</li>
<li>four units of English</li>
<li>four units of mathematics (algebra I or higher)</li>
<li>three units of science, including one unit of biology and one unit of chemistry</li>
<li>three units of social studies</li>
<li>one unit of fine arts (visual arts, music, dance or theater)</li>
<li>two units of the same foreign language</li>
<li>one-half unit of a computer science course is recommended by the medical school</li>
</ul>
If you make it into the six year BA/MD program and you come in with no college credit for General Chemistry (either through AP or by taking the class at a local college/UMKC in the summer), I highly recommend adding Biology 202: Cell Biology in the Fall Semester of Year 1, to your Fall course load, when you have the high energy to study hard in the program and living in a structured environment with everyone living at the dorm and being able to go to SI tutoring sessions, if you need it.
Many students extend in the program in the summer after Year 1, due to having to take Cell Bio, Organic Chemistry, AND Organic Chemistry Lab in the summer.
That’s great advice! Do you have any other tidbits that can help a possible future student
Start from my first “advice” post (Post #1544) and go forward. I go into great detail on different things: major to choose, AP exams to take, etc. and include helpful links as well. If you have any specific questions I may not have addressed, let me know.
Would you mind if I compiled it into one post and reposted it?
No problem, go ahead. I was wondering the same thing too, how someone would be able to find all that information in once place, w/o having to go page after page after page once people start getting acceptances to the program (April 1) and are then deciding whether or not to go to UMKC at all or do the normal route of 4+4.
I wish there was a way here like on SDN (Student Doctor Network), where you can actually make a “sticky” that always appears at the top. This forum doesn’t have as many features as the one SDN uses.
Does anyone know when interviews will be decided and when people are accepted?
After getting approval from the author (Happytograduate as well as some other notable people regarding the awards and other opinions) I proceeded to compile this for the good of CCer’s.
*Please Note: Hyperlinks do not show up
<hr>
Excerpt from a PM of a question that was asked of me:
I’ve been accepted to the UMKC six-year BA/MD program and I am out-of-state. As you know the tuition is very very expensive. I know that I want to go for medicine, but at the same time, I don’t know whether UMKC is a good fit for me or the place I want to do it at. Naturally, I also don’t want to kick out an M.D. acceptance, if this is my only chance to become a doctor. Which major should I go for so that if I do decide early on that the program is not right for me, I won’t be behind when I transfer somewhere else?
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Well first off, congrats on getting in. As you know there are many BA/MD programs some better than others, all of them competitive. The fact that you got into a combined program, means you have the study skills it takes to get into a medical school period, so don’t take it as “I will never make it to med school if I don’t do this program.” There are tons of people who received an acceptance to UMKC who declined it and went somewhere else. Hence, why UMKC usually gives more acceptances than spots as many people are GUARANTEED to drop. Apparently my year, there were 160 acceptances given out, and first day of Year 1 we had 120 students.
I am glad that you are looking at this seriously, many people dive into the program not knowing how compressed it really is, and only look at the beginning of the roller coaster and end of the roller coaster without looking at the loopty-loops in between. I know people who left the program and did the normal premed route as well, and got into damn good med schools. One of my friends actually ended up at WashU AND didn’t lose any time either. However, she left after the first year with no academic hiccups. She just didn’t like the intense speed of the program (i.e. taking Medical School Physiology as a sophomore in college) as well as the cutting out of many of the prerequisites and jumping automatically into advanced upper-level course work (i.e. not having to take General Biology I and II and jumping into Cell Biology even though General Bio is a required prerequisite for all the undergraduate students.) You have to understand many of the prerequisites are cut out for medical students in the program so it fits into a six year program. It is assumed that you have a working knowledge of those subjects. Remember, many students have taken AP coursework, so you’re assumed to be a cream of the crop student. If you don’t have the prereqs, at least as a UMKC medical student you are expected to pick things up quickly.
I work with many residents who do the normal 4+4, and they wouldn’t trade their undergrad years for the world. They studied and had a great social life. Not that UMKC does not, but since UMKC is essentially a commuter campus, there is much less than other places, and the workload can be very intense esp. if you’re not coming in with testing credit about 20 hrs. at least of classes in the normal semester.
Just remember in this program you do not get your summers off, which may or may not be a deal-breaker for you. I know that may not seem like a big deal, but for some, it’s hard to always go to school without time to recharge your batteries or do community service in the summer or get a part-time job etc.
Remember the two benefits you are getting from the program are:
- You don’t have to take the MCAT (which really is replaced by taking the USMLE exams which all med students have to take to be licensed)
- You graduate in six years, assuming you don’t extend. If you do extend, it’s usually for 1 full year, which means ANOTHER year of out-of-state tuition.
I would say cost is definitely not a benefit in your case, as you are out-of-state, I haven’t calculated for in-state whether it really is a “deal” for them.
You are right the tuition is VERY HIGH esp. for out-of-state students. Out of state tuition for 2008-2009, is for Years 1 & 2 = $46,304 and Years 3-6 = $53,866. That’s certainly not chump change. In fact UMKC has one of the highest out-of-state tuitions in the country, 2nd only to Colorado which charges $60,000 but it is for 4 years of med school. For UMKC, that’s $308,072 (You could send 2 kids to med school with that money) and that’s without considering the annual tuition going up every year, which it inevitably does. The loans collected and the interest collected would be VERY HIGH, and that doesn’t even include books, living, etc. Just so you know, UMKC does not allow out-of-state students to get non-resident scholarships. The medical school at UMKC is not well funded by the state, and they get expenses paid esp. through out-of-state tuition.
The major I would choose for you since you are unsure about going to UMKC’s med school but ARE sure about going for medicine is the Biology BA degree. When I went to UMKC the only option was the Liberal Arts degree, along with Chemistry, Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy, but no science bachelors degrees unless you wanted to extend and take longer than six years. This was because there was a huge fight between the School of Biological Sciences (SBS) and the Medical school which you may hear about from people. Now, I think that scar has healed between the two and SBS is willing to accept Medical School science classes such as Human Biochemistry and Human Structure Function to fulfill requirements for the Biology degree.
As you know the first year of college, no matter where you go, you are doing general education courses: General Psych, General Sociology, Freshman English, Sophomore English, US History, etc. for your undergraduate degree and at the same time doing the premed requirements.
As you know you would probably do 1 year of General Bio and 1 year of General Chem your freshman year and 1 year of Organic Chemistry and 1 year of General Physics your sophomore year for your premed requirements.
Thus, by starting to do the first year of your Bachelor’s for Biology, you’re just doing freshman premed reqs and general ed requirements ONLY which everybody is required to do.
This is the key part though: Strive to do well in all of your courses as much as you can for the time being. At the same time, you have one year from the beginning of fall to end of spring to ask around and find out more about the program, ask Year 3’s (who are taking basic sciences) , Year 4s (who are preparing to take boards), year 5s (who are taking clinical rotations), and Year 6s (who are applying for residencies), how they feel about the program. Don’t ask administrators as you will get the obvious PC answer. Ask the people who are affected by it: the STUDENTS themselves.
Ask them these questions: AAMC: Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked
Especially ask them how well did they feel their medical school courses prepared them for national board exams as well as how much they feel faculty and administration are helpful to students as a whole. You can ask Student Affairs for emails of students and they should be willing to give them to you, if not that should be a red flag to you. You will also meet medical students as well from student organizations and ask them for their candid opinions that you wouldn’t get at your interview, when everyone is on good behavior. Also, ask for the match lists in the past few years from Student Affairs and look them over and see how well people match in fields you may be interested in. Do people match at great programs, do they stay in the midwest or spread across the U.S.? What is the USMLE Step 1 average? How did the high scorers feel the curriculum helped in that regard? Those questions are very important. These would have been good to ask before you came to UMKC but just remember since you’re only there for the interview date, people will be glamorizing the program and telling you what you want to hear, not necessarily what you should hear. Write down what they feel so you remember but don’t rely on one opinion to heavily. The more people you ask, the more accurate your impression will be.
If you decide to stay great! You have no doubts and you can continue as the only extra sciences that the BA in Biology has in comparison to the Bachelor of Liberal Arts is General Bio I and II with Lab (which you’ve completed by now), and one semester of Physics. All other science courses required are exactly the same for both degrees (Anatomy, Micro, Genetics, Cell, etc). Your Science GPA will be better as you have a few more basic science courses to rely on than your classmates.
If you decide that it’s not worth the cost, or you’d rather get your Bachelors or MD degree from a more prestigious place, or the curriculum is too restricting, you don’t like being away from your family for long periods of time etc. then you’re ok. You’ve only done one year of general ed and premed reqs which you would have done at another school anyways. And you can transfer those credits somewhere else (Those credits will transfer as those courses are available at all universities). You can even decide to do another major as ONCE AGAIN you’ve only done general education and premed requirements. My friend that went to WashU for med school, for example changed her Bachelors to Business Administration when she transferred to another university, to finish her undergrad as she did not want to get her bachelors from UMKC and applied to med school in her fourth year of undergrad like she would have done if she had done 4+4.
If your only reason to go to UMKC is avoiding having to take the MCATs, please DO NOT COME HERE. It’s not worth being miserable at a place you don’t like to avoid one test, when it is replaced by two more tests: USMLE Step 1 and Step 2. You can’t skip licensing exams. There are commercial prep programs for the MCATs and with your established study ethic and motivation you will do great on the MCATs. How do I know? Because I looked at a practice MCAT after I finished my bachelor science classes and many of them I could answer quite easily (just not a few of the Physics questions as I didn’t have it in college, and I forgot what I learned in AP Physics in high school LOL).
Just remember, being that you applied to a combined BA/MD program, when many don’t know about them, makes it likely that you are motivated, focused, and enthusiastic to do well not matter where you go. That’s the formula to getting into medical school in the first place. A combined BA/MD program is just a different way, not the ONLY way, to reach the same destination.
actually UMKC does not ask for SAT II scores and doesn’t require them. They only ask for the ACT, or SAT if you are out of state. The more prestigious programs, such as Brown or Northwestern require the SAT II. This should give you an idea of scores needed:
BA/MD Programs - U.S. School Listing - Medical School Help
These aren’t all the med programs and some may be discontinued.
From the UMKC med program admissions website:
UMKC School of Medicine
Missouri Residents
In addition to the application requirements, Missouri residents must also meet the following criteria:
ACT score of 26 or higher
Rank in the upper 20 percent of high school graduating class
Out-of-State Residents
In addition to the application requirements, out-of-state residents must also meet the following criteria:
Rank in the upper 10 percent of high school graduating class
ACT score of 28 or higher
Completion of the ACT Student Profile. An SAT 1 (M+CR) composite score of 1200 or above will be considered; however, the ACT is strongly preferred.
I’ve been asked which premed requirements are skipped in entering the BA/MD program at UMKC. I’ll list what the pre-med requirements usually are at most medical schools and what are skipped at UMKC. I will do it under the assumption that the student entering UMKC does the Bachelor of Liberal Arts degree that most people end up doing.
General Chemistry I and II with Labs
English (Freshman and Sophomore English)
General Biology I and II with Labs - SKIPPED
General Physics I and II with Labs - SKIPPED
Organic Chemistry I and II with Labs - We do not take the full year “premed” Organic Chemistry. We do a condensed one semester survey of Organic Chemistry with the one-semester lab instead. This course would not ordinarily fulfill the premed requirement in someone applying for medical school.
Math (usually 1 semester of Calculus) - SKIPPED
On par with what HappytoGraduate is saying, I was in the combined program as well. I graduated from high school in May 2004, and started the program that Fall of 2004. I was at the top of my class in Missouri, I was ranked 5 out of 800. I came in with credit for: AP English Language, AP US History, AP Psychology, AP Physics B (which didn’t help for my degree), and AP Biology (which didn’t help either). I took as many AP courses as maximum allowed, as luckily our school offered almost everyone, and I would say with respect to college preparation and earning my “A” in my coursework in high school was very rigorous.
During my first year or you’re called a “Year 1”, I really enjoyed it. I happened to have a docent (who’s pretty much like an attending doctor-mentor) from whom I learned a LOT about medicine, like taking patient medical histories and learning about communicating with patients. For me, the learning experience was effective, I know for others it was more of a pain from studying for their other classes. At the school, there is a huge emphasis on Science GPA in order to promote so you end up putting in more effort in those classes rather than Docent, Med Term, etc. which are Pass/Fail, which I think is a little sad, considering the latter classes are more important to becoming a doctor. I was going for the liberal arts degree, as I figured the important part is the MD.
So by the end of my 2nd semester of Year 1, I knew I wanted to be a doctor.
We didn’t get to go home right away when finals were over the first week of May, as we had to do a 2-wk Hospital experience right after, when everyone else went home for the summer, and then we got to go home for about 2 weeks before the summer semester started and then the fall semester starts 2 weeks into August, about 2 weeks after the summer semester is over. So all in all you get 1 month vacation after Year 1, when most undergrads get about 3 months off.
Well the summer semester is only eight weeks long and I was taking Cell Biology, Orgo Chem, and Orgo Lab, and it was the most exhausting summers of my life unlike the first 2 semesters. Literally the moment I stepped out of class I would walk back to the dorm and start studying, with only time to sleep and eat every single day for 2 months as you have master things so fast. Things go that fast and it’s not watered down at all. Unlike the first two semesters, in the summer you cover like 1 chapter every 1 or 2 days.
Both Cell and Orgo meet 4 days a week in the 8-week summer with twice a week lab. To give you an idea:
Organic Chem was MoTuWeTh 12:00PM - 1:40PM
Organic Chem Lab was TuTh 8:00AM - 11:00AM
Cell Bio was MoTuWeTh 2:00PM - 3:15PM
For Organic we had a total of 4 exams to determine our grade, with one exam every week-and-a-half covering 3-4 chapters.
For Cell Biology we had 3 exams to determine our grade, with each exam covering 6 chapters, with the first exam after 3 weeks, and the next two exams, after every 2 weeks.
It was a very hard and difficult decision as I knew I wanted to be a doctor but I withdrew from the program immediately after the summer semester was over. My GPA was 3.98. The reason I did this is because I knew I would not be able to do this program constantly year round with no break at all for 6 years, and so then I transferred to my state school closer to my family, University of Missouri-Columbia (Mizzou) and did my bachelor’s in Finance.
I got more financial aid from Mizzou than I got at UMKC which is virtually non-existent for medical students, esp. OOS. I got to get involved in research and many more extracurricular activities, I got into Phi Beta Kappa, an undergrad honor society at most colleges, but not available at UMKC, and also get involved in medical research at the local medical school and undergrad campus, that wasn’t available at UMKC at all. I quickly caught up on my premed requirements, took my MCATs my junior year and with Princeton Review got a 40. And this 2007-2008 school year, I applied to medical school and will be going to University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine in Fall 2008.
Many of my friends who continued the program were academically separated later and now owe back a huge debt, extended, and/or don’t like the program at all now that they are in the medical school, but they have no choice now. I am glad I left early enough, as I ended up in a top ten medical school by applying myself, finishing the requirements, and doing well by not rushing things and skipping many good foundational classes. My mental health and physical health, as well as my stress level is also better because of it.
Factors:
Total economic investment: Out-of-state: At least $360K
Lack of transferability of courses if you decide to leave
Lack of prestige for residency purposes (maybe Mayo Clinic and Beth Israel Deconess are the few exceptions of recent)
Undergrad experience is unremarkable
KC blows if you aren’t from the Midwest
Mainly you should be basing it on the opportunities available at the medical school (research, prestige, see where people have matched and in what fields based on previous match lists).
Ask those in the program who have taken the USMLE Step 1 as to how they felt the program. The program should be willing to give you emails of people to contact of older students in the medical school part of the program.
As I have posted before: AAMC: Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked
Yes, these programs are competitive, and some are MUCH better than others, and some are just down right terrible. Don’t think you’re getting a better deal by doing some of these programs (not all). You’ll see soon enough if you decide to do a combined degree program, that when it comes to matching in the residency you want (esp. if you interested in going to a competitive residency), the medical school you go to DOES matter and the opportunities (or lack thereof) will affect residencies available to you.
Best of luck to you.
<h1>^^I have been wondering about residency. I heard before that med. school is important. On the other hand I personally know coulple people who got into very top (Mayo Clinic) from very low ranked Med. Schools. Can you give us a little more details in regard to residencies and in particular very competitive ones like Dermotology?</h1>
Well, the ones that go to low ranked medical schools and end up at top notch places are those on the extreme end of the spectrum, meaning they were probably the very top of the class, with VERY high board scores, unlike if you’re in the middle class at UPenn or Harvard you’ll still get into GREAT places. If you’re middle of the pack at a low ranked school, that’s a major blow, and thus very difficult if not impossible to. With respect to competitive residencies, those have been difficult to get, but people have gotten Ortho, Urology (after taking a year off to do research, etc. As UMKC does not have a Dermatology department, I know 2 people who applied for Derm and did not match. So when it comes to many of the competitive specialties UMKC does not have them like Radiation Oncology or Derm.
<h1>I have heard that the USME Step 1 score & grades (plus being in AOA Honor Society for med school) are what helps you get the residency you want- not the particular med school name. Yet if you look at top med school match lists most do well any way for “whatever” the reason is.</h1>
While that is true, you have to realize for especially the competitive residencies, everyone who gets the interview ALREADY HAS good grades, high USMLE Step 1 scores, and is AOA. The only other difference is caliber of medical school and that IS important.
Thus, a middle tier applicant at UPenn will do MUCH better in the match then a middle tier applicant at a lower caliber medical school. It’s not just grades (which can be inflated) or a test score from one day that are important, residencies look at the quality of your school which tells how good your education. As a pretty good rule, more prestigious institutions tend to prepare their students better.
The problem with UMKC is that it’s research funding is very low and doesn’t have many competitive residencies: Urology, Dermatology, Radiation Oncology, Plastics, etc… If you are interested in going to a place with opportunities for research to amp up your CV and application UMKC is not the place for you to be. This is why some people take a year off to do research somewhere else and then come back, but even then it’s not a guarantee for matching. UMKC is mainly for cranking out primary care/internal medicine physicians not specialists like higher ranked schools. There are exceptions but those are people who ranked at the very top of the class and may get into a competitive specialty in not a big name place or a non-competitive specialty in a top-notch place.
<h1>Happy I totally agree! Its just that if you are in a med school/ or program of this caliber you CAN get into those specialties if you do very well. Not easy, but still always possible.</h1>
That’s what you don’t understand Oreo. UMKC’s medical school is not highly regarded when it comes to competitive specialties. Unlike other combined programs like at Northwestern or Brown, UMKC is not well known and is not highly ranked. Many of my friends were at the top of my class and did not match into very competitive specialties.
With respect to Derm, you’ll see that many of the people who get many interviews for Derm went to top notch medical schools. The 2 applicants who went for Derm my year, each got about 3 invites and that’s it for Derm positions and neither matched and both were top of their , one of them being #1. In this respect, they were at a serious disadvantage to matching, as UMKC does not have a home derm program. At least at any other medical school, they would have the slight comfort of possibly matching at their home institution and to get involved in the department early on as a med student, however this obviously was not possibly in their case, and thus inherently affected their ability to match.
Yes, unfortunately, I never realized it before entering the program, but certain competitive residencies are difficult if not impossible to obtain even if you are at the top of your class at UMKC and other lower tier medical schools (residencies don’t care if you took 8, 7, or 6 years, they care about the quality of your education). This is where the rankings from US World News and Report are important, unfortunately.
If you notice, many of the lower tier schools like UMKC, NEOCOM, Wayne State, etc. (there are some top schools like Northwestern or Brown but those are EXTREMELY competitive - You have to have Taken Sat I and 3 SAT IIs with very high scores), are either lowly ranked or not ranked at all.
Many of the lower tier medical schools offer these combined programs as it would be difficult for them to attract people if they didn’t have these programs. You notice that Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Yale, etc. don’t have programs like these, and there is a reason. Their medical education is very good, and they expect their undergraduates to have a full well rounded education as well. Undergrad is not meant to zip through just to finish premed requirements. Don’t sell yourself short. I’m not saying all these type of programs are bad, but you have to find out what it is YOU want in a program and ask students who are in that program right now (once you get acceptances), as to the lowdown on whether your medical school offers what you want and how well they prepare you for the board exams.
Not all medical schools are created equal by any means, and residencies know that. They will take a lower ranked student at Hopkins or UPenn over a top UMKC student anyday.
UMKC is doing better on boards, but there is a lot of roadblocks in the curriculum before you are even allowed to take boards. That’s been in the past few years. When I entered the program, the board failure rate was quite high, which is why there are so many roadblocks now: mandatory Science GPA to promote (eventhough you don’t take that many science courses), all med school classes are graded rather than usual Pass/Fail or Honors/Pass/Fail, passing of mock boards, etc, and that’s just to SIGN UP for boards.
With respect to medical school classes preparing students well for the national boards, I would say it is very poor.
Many students end up paying for a commerical board preparation course, as the curriculum and professors are not good in preparing students. We get a lot longer (our Year 4 of the program) to study for boards which we usually take at the end of Year 4 (so about 1 yr of preparation). However, realize that most med students take boards within 2 months after finishing basic sciences. I know if we did that, much of the class would fail.
What exactly does this program lack that others may have?
- Limited number of Bachelors Degrees you are allowed to pursue: Liberal Arts (which is utterly useless without the MD program), Sociology, Psychology, Chem, Bio, all which are BA degrees. Getting a BS is out of the question as well as others that aren’t already set up. On top of that you only get 2 years complete to finish your degree thus most people end up doing the Liberal Arts degree not out of choice, but the only way to make it fit, as it has so little hours.
<ol>
<li>
Very little to no state funding thus most of the cost is transferred to the student, which is why for the BA/MD program, the tuition is one of the highest in the country. There are literally no scholarships given as being a medical student is one of the exclusionary criteria.
</li>
<li>
Little to no research activity at UMKC, although I’ve heard that it is getting better now. UMKC is not a research institution, its to send students into primary care. Thus this can hurt you in applying to competitive residencies and there are many in my class who did stellar in their academics, but did not match into residencies such as Urology or Derm.
</li>
<li>
Not a prestigious or highly ranked program compared to Mizzou or WashU or even in official rankings in US World News Report: both in Research or Primary Care
</li>
<li>
Many prerequisite courses are taken out: General Bio I and II, Physics I and II, Organic I and II (you do a one semester course). Thus by skipping these prereqs this sometimes creates a problem for students in upper level courses. Which the program makes you jump into them starting your Year 2: taking Medical School biochemistry and then Med School Anatomy.
</li>
<li>
Basic Science education is not taught well here, and thus are very unprepared for USMLE Step 1. Thus students, end up having to enroll in expensive commercial board prep courses. Because of funding issues, there aren’t enough microscopes for all students, thus, they have to have separate lab groups that come at a specific time. Gross Anatomy - students’ don’t even dissect.
</li>
<li>
School runs year round and you get NO summers off, thus burn out is common at this program. In fact if you check statistics: 20% of students end up leaving the program without the MD degree.
</li>
</ol>
These are just the ones at the top of my head.
POSITIVE(S):
Being able to graduate in six years (some residencies, esp. the competitive ones, consider this a negative though - as you are considered too young or that your education is too hurried as they know things are squeezed into six years, even if you are academically stellar as I was).
To be honest, besides this board which is anonymous, unless the person is a very good and true friend, they won’t tell you the truth. Not one thing I’ve listed for the negatives is untrue. The truth is most people don’t want to admit that they made a hasty decision, or that their decision was wrong, so most people are tight-lipped about it and when they graduate are glad to get the hell out. Thus, when you get in the program you figure out these things very quickly. What’s worse is the tuition rate is ATROCIOUS, esp. if you’re out of state.
Now whether other people choose to use rationalization as their defense mechanism to be able to get through the BA/MD program, that’s another story. After going through the program for years with many problems and complaints, after leaving they disappear, as you are ready to get on with your life bc you can’t change it and leave KC, and just think about the good memories. You have to ask yourself, if UMKC was that great, why do most people not stay at UMKC for their residency programs? Also, why is it not ranked at all in US World News and Report for research or primary care? If the clinical training and early exposure was so great, at least you would think UMKC would rank high in the clinical ranks (aka Primary care rankings).
As you can see the news article in my last post, the school does have problems esp. when it comes to funding, and none of the stuff I have said is untrue. UMKC HAS had trouble in their board passing rates in the past, although now that problem is a lot less as there are a lot of hoops to jump through before taking boards (specific Science GPA required to promote, Mock Board exam written by those who write USMLE questions, in which students have to get a certain score in order to be allowed to sign up).
It all depends what you want in a medical school and how competitive you wish to be for residency, esp. if you desire a highly competitive residency.
You have to ask more probing questions than just “Do you like the program”: AAMC: Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked
Ask the admissions person at UMKC if you can get a contact with a student who’s in the program NOW (like Year 4/5) to ask them questions about the program. If they say they can’t do that, that is a HUGE red flag. The curriculum of the program changes all the time, so it is utterly useless to talk to a graduate, especially if it was a while back. Classes and more and more requirements get added to the six year program. Check out SDN (Student Doctor Network as well) to see about the program.
Ask them how did they feel coursework alone prepared them for boards or did they have to rely on courses like Kaplan, ask about scholarship funding and state med school funding (apparently now #72/76 according to the article), etc. I would talk to them on the phone as most don’t want to be traced to an email and would be more honest getting to talk to them directly. Do your HW on BA/MD programs as they are not all created equal by any means.
With respect to scholarships given, many of the scholarships given by UMKC exclude medical students being able to apply and receive them: <a href=“https://www.sfa.umkc.edu/site/forms/...t_freshman.pdf[/url]”>https://www.sfa.umkc.edu/site/forms/...t_freshman.pdf</a>. Unless things have changed in the past few years, no one I know gets a full tuition or half tuition scholarship or even close to that. If you are out-of-state, you agree to paying full out-of-state tuition for all six years, or longer if necessary (i.e. if you extend). UMKC gives very little scholarship support to med students as UMKC in general receives a lot less funding from the state as compared to Mizzou in Columbia (University of Missouri-Columbia). See the article I linked above regarding UMKC being #72 of 76 public med schools with regards to funding by the state (the article says apparently we used to be dead last). Thus this means the pricetag is passed on to the student, resulting in students with MUCH MUCH higher aggregate loans by graduation.
The interview more focuses on you as a person (why you want to be a doctor, why specifically the six year program vs. 4 + 4 - (look at the brochures for this one), and more holistic type of questions as they already have your academic information in front of them).
As far as a I know there is not really any innovative research going on as UMKC is not a research institution. I have noticed on the website though that they are more organized now with the “Office of Research”. You might want to ask otacon88, regarding this as he is a 3rd year now as far as if anything has changed with regards to research opportunities and more importantly medical students being able to get involved in them, but I know when I was there, the research opportunities were minimal to none. The people I know who did research mainly had poster presentations and abstracts, but not actual published in a journal stuff from UMKC. The ones that I know that got stuff published in journals either did so from away rotations at other places or took a year off do research at other places.
consistent question I keep getting is UMKC’s ranking in US World News and Report. To be fair, USWNR has a list for research rank vs. primary care rank. (research vs. clinical medicine). UMKC chooses not to be included in either ranking list.
Here is the methodology that takes into account the numerous factors, each one weighted at a specific percentage some calculated for the research rank and others calculated for the primary care rank: Medicine Methodology - US News and World Report
Copied and Pasted below:
Research Activity (weighted by .30 in the research medical school model only)
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Total Research Activity (.20) Measured by the total dollar amount of National Institutes of Health research grants awarded to the medical school and its affiliated hospitals, averaged for 2006 and 2007. An asterisk indicates schools that reported only research grants to their medical school in 2007.
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Average Research Activity Per Faculty Member (.10) Measured by the dollar amount of National Institutes of Health research grants awarded to the medical school and its affiliated hospitals per full-time faculty member, averaged over 2006 and 2007. Both full-time basic sciences and clinical faculty were used in the faculty count. An asterisk indicates schools that reported research grants only to their medical school in 2007.
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Primary-Care Rate (.30 in the primary-care medical school model only) The percentage of M.D. or D.O. school graduates entering primary-care residencies in the fields of family practice, pediatrics, and internal medicine was averaged over 2005, 2006, and 2007.
Student Selectivity (.20 in the research medical school model, .15 in the primary-care medical school model)
Mean MCAT Score (.13 in the research medical school model, .0975 in the primary-care medical school model) The mean composite Medical College Admission Test score of the 2007 entering class.
Mean Undergraduate GPA (.06 in the research medical school model, .045 in the primary-care medical school model) The mean undergraduate grade-point average of the 2007 entering class.
Acceptance Rate (.01 in the research medical school model, .0075 in the primary-care medical school model) The proportion of applicants to the 2007 entering class who were offered admission.
Faculty Resources (.10 in the research medical school model, .15 in the primary-care medical school model) Faculty Resources were measured as the ratio of full-time science and full-time clinical faculty to full-time M.D. or D.O. students in 2007.
Overall Rank: Indicators were standardized about their means, and standardized scores were weighted, totaled, and rescaled so that the top school received 100; other schools received their percentage of the top score.
Specialty Rankings: The rankings are based solely on ratings by medical school deans and senior faculty from the list of schools surveyed. They each identified up to 10 schools offering the best programs in each specialty area. Those receiving the most nominations appear here.
The important thing to do is to take the most rigorous curriculum that you can handle and that is available at your school. For example, at my school, I was lucky in that almost every AP test had an AP class available at my school (except like Chinese, Japanese, Italian, etc.), but I was also an out-of-state student. The courses that were taken before the official AP courses, were designated Pre-AP (what your school calls Honors courses) (i.e. Pre-AP Precalculus, Pre-AP English I, Pre-AP World History, etc.). Just curious does your Language and Grammar Honors class prepare you for the AP English Language exam? I’m surprised in looking at your schedule as most schools that offer AP courses at least offer AP English Language (junior year) and AP English Literature (senior year).
I know many people in my class, from Missouri, came from high schools that did not offer AP courses at all, so you are better off than a lot of them.
Before I forget, take a computer class offered at your school, (I took AP Computer Science I), as apparently that’s the most common reason for rejection when someone has not taken a computer course, although they don’t directly tell you.
Also inquire about other BA/MD programs, as no matter what your stats/extracurriculars, out-of-state or in-state, NOTHING is a guarantee, and a lot of times it comes down to luck or getting off the waitlist. You don’t want to put all your eggs in one basket with no backup plan.
Also look into scholarship opportunities (there are some you can apply your junior year), bc regardless of whether you make it into the program or not, scholarship support is always helpful.
It doesn’t have to be a Computer Science class per say, it can be Computer Literacy or another dinky Computer-related class. I found this out after I got in during Year 1, that the most common reason for rejection from the program is not having taken a class dealing with computers - I guess bc as a med student and later physician, familiarity with computers and not being computer illiterate is important, as medical records are more and more electronic rather than paper. You may want to check with the admissions people to see if this is still the case, as maybe things have changed.
For UMKC, your AP scores are not even really considered so it’s not a big deal. I took almost every AP course offered at my school (for the extra weighted GPA and ranking purposes - I also went to a public OOS school) and concentrated on making good grades in them, but took very few AP tests, as I didn’t know whether I was going to do the 4+4 route and thus APing out of Bio, Chem, and Physics was not a good idea. In the spectrum of BA/MD programs, UMKC is one of the lesser competitive ones, hence the lack of asking for SAT II scores unlike the Northwestern or Brown programs.
The only thing I can think of as you’re not able to get involved in official university extracurricular organizations yet, is to to continue your research but in a field you are thinking about possibly going into or if you’re not sure: get involved in basic science research projects. I know premeds tend to also do EMT volunteering type of stuff as well, or doing a month of international medicine in a foreign country. Many medical schools/colleges let you do a summer of biomedical research as well as the NIH: NIH Student Training Opportunities For residency though, many of those things are outside of things you can do now like rotations, board scores, etc. so the above is more for doing the usual 4+4, unless you go into the field you happened to do research in which is hard to know at this point.
Usually the official websites of the programs (which should give you a VERY clear idea of how the curriculum is), as well as CollegeConfidential here, will give you enough information for interviews and so just get a book about getting into medical school and look at the chapter about the interview and just go through them to see how you’d answer them. The questions you will be asked will be getting to know you, not quizzing you on the intricacies of the specific program (although you may be asked why you picked THAT particular program - which is reasonable - and you’ll have to go beyond “Bc it’s a guaranteed program” or you’ll look like a putz).
The key is to find out EVERYTHING you can about the school by asking questions to someone who is actually in the program which they should be more than happy to give you a contact email of someone: AAMC: Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked.
Well for residency, getting into Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Society (AOA) during medical school, is helpful esp. for competitive residencies. There is a chapter at UMKC’s school of Medicine. Almost all medical schools have AOA, except Harvard Medical School which doesn’t have a chapter, but not like that matters, as it is Harvard, after all. But this isn’t a magic bullet, as esp. for competitive residencies, almost everyone applying will be AOA.
For college to get INTO medical school, Phi Beta Kappa is the highest undergraduate honor which is very well-known. There is no Phi Beta Kappa chapter set up at UMKC, at least not yet.
A frequent message I get is what undergraduate degrees are possible to pursue within the 6 year BA/MD program at UMKC. You have to realize that you are limited to very few options, as you only really get a total of barely 2 years to finish your degree (5 semesters).
You are charged the medical school rate of tuition per credit hour for School of Medicine courses AND undergraduate courses for all 6 years or longer if necessary. Click on “School of Medicine”: UMKC Cashiers Office - Fee Structure
For those applying this year to enter in Fall 2009 (Class of 2015) - semesters that you are allowed to take undergraduate courses for your bachelors degree in are:
Year 1: Fall 2009, Spring 2010
Year 2: Summer 2010, Fall 2010
Year 4: Depending on how many hrs. you have left, one semester in Year 4 called your campus semester - Summer 2012, Fall 2012, or Spring 2013
This site lists them all: choosing a major
Most people choose the Liberal Arts degree as it has the fewest extra hours outside your science classes - 21 hours of Humanities courses and 21 hours of Social Sciences courses. The downside of course, is that the Liberal Arts degree, as you can imagine, is relatively useless if you happen to leave the program in the middle.
For the other degrees, if you see the chart many require you to have incoming credit whether it is through AP credit, IB credit, CLEP credit, or transfer credit, as you are cramped for time to fit it into the 6 yr. program. The upside is that you have another route if things don’t work out, through those degrees, although the bachelor degree is coming from UMKC, so don’t really know how marketable that will be outside the midwest unlike if you were to do the same degree at Northwestern, Brown, etc.
There is no cap on transfer credit, but there is a cap of 30 credit hours for testing credit (AP/CLEP/IB): UMKC Registration and Records - Credit by Examination
If you notice, all the degrees are BA degrees. If you decided to pursue a BS degree, you would have to automatically extend in the program and do another year or 2 (and pay the School of Medicine rate no less) to finish those undergraduate requirements.
For those who asked about doing a backup degree such as Engineering and Business, as you can see, this is out of the question, unless you want to take more time and extend in the program and pay the annual med school rate tuition above.
Hence, before entering the program, think carefully and look at it from all angles, as the decision you make is hard to back out of after the first year, without coming out with a huge monetary loss for you and your parents.
There are awards/scholarships that would impress med schools: Rhodes Scholar, Fullbright Scholar, Marshall/Udall Scholars, etc. They’re just ridiculously hard to get. Phi Beta Kappa is probably the easiest award to get since it just involves you taking some liberal arts courses and graduating in the top 3-10% of your class. I personally don’t think adcoms give it a lot of weight because they can just look at your transcript to determine that you’re a good student. For that reason, PBK was the last thing I listed on my med school apps (out of 15 EC’s/awards).
Rhodes, Marshall and Gates Cambridge stand an order of magnitude above Fulbrights, based on both numbers and nature of the award. To explain, the Rhodes awards 32/year. Marshall around 40. Gates Cambridge similar number. And all these are based strictly on academics and leadership potential. In contrast, there are about 5,000 Fulbrights, if I recall correctly, and they are not strictly based on academic potential. There is a big cultural exchange component. So they signal far less to a med school committee.
But the bigger problem with each of these is that they are awarded late fall of senior year at the earliest, so for them to count, you would be a late applicant to Med School.
There are a series of nationally known scholarships awarded to undergrads that would show up on a med school application. The most relevant is the Goldwater, but a Truman or Udall would also be impressive.
PBK would count a lot more if you were one of the few that received the award as a junior, since by PBK bylaws, universities can only award a small fraction of the honor to juniors.
To be honest, your age WILL be a problem, as the lowest age UMKC actually has accepted and really is ok with accepting, has been 16. They don’t want you younger than that, as ALREADY it is an accelerated and highly compressed curriculum/program, not to mention getting the MD degree at an even younger age when u graduate. You probably would get an interview, it’s after that, which is the question and you would definitely get that as an interview question by your interviewers. Just to give you a heads up.
Questions that are asked by interviewers are trying to probe and gauge your commitment to medicine and more importantly your maturity and coping skills to enter a six year accelerated BA/MD program, which is hard enough to ask to an 18 yr. old so you can imagine asking a 15 yr old or in your case I guess the interview would happen when you’re 14.
I don’t know where you heard about the AP score difference, but is completely false. Those are the scores you need to get credit as those courses are towards your Bachelors degree given by the undergraduate campus, not the medical school.
First off, the program does not require students to take General Biology I and II with Labs. Credit for General Biology I and II (which is if you decide to do the Biology BA - you have to come in with credit like AP Calculus, AP Physics, AP Chemistry etc. though 1st to fit the Biology BA in the six year program) - is only allowed by actually taking the classes (with the labs).
Getting a passing score on the AP exam for Biology does not give you credit for General Biology I and II (Bio 108 and 109). The AP Exam gives you credit for the non-major Biology course: Biology 102: UMKC 2007-08 Catalog (BIOL Course 1.6 2007-06-12) - 102 Biology And*Living
Biology I and II are not taken by BA/MD students, if you pursue the Liberal Arts degree which is what most students end up doing, rightfully or wrongfully: [PAGE</a> NOT FOUND](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/medicine/curricu.../Year12BLA.pdf]PAGE”>http://www.umkc.edu/medicine/curricu.../Year12BLA.pdf)
Curriculum:
UMKC 2007-08 Catalog (MEDICINE 1.0 2007-06-14) - Typical Curriculum - Six-Year Program
I think I’ll answer since no one else has taken the bait.
From what I remember:
You first go through a tour of the place.
After that, usually the way it works is your have one clinician, one basic scientist, and one more person who interviews you (psychiatrist, student on Council of Selection, etc.) separately who ask you questions usually the standard: why you want to do medicine, etc.
<a href=“http://web.mit.edu/career/www/prepro...wquestions.pdf[/url]”>http://web.mit.edu/career/www/prepro...wquestions.pdf</a>
You can also see the interview database on SDN here (u may have to create free account to see this): Interview Feedback: Allopathic Medical Schools - University of Missouri Kansas City School of Medicine
The interview is to find out more from you on:
- Why you chose the 6 year med program at UMKC (and it has to be more than just bc I wanted to skip the MCATs and get into med school) vs. pursuing a 4+4 route
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Whether you are equipped to handle a highly compressed curriculum which runs year round (fall, spring, and summer) from a mental standpoint (i.e. if you say you want a full well-rounded college experience, your application will get tossed)
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Find about you as a human being - what do you read, your volunteering experiences, essentially explaining in greater detail the answers to the questions about you on the application.
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To the ones asking whether UMKC’s six year med program is expensive, in the words of Sarah Palin, “You betcha!”
In adding up the numbers from my prior post with the 2009-2010 numbers this is the total tuition for six years (those numbers also don’t take into account a rise in tuition every year due to inflation, also, if you extend you pay one additional year of tuition). These numbers are so high now, at least for OOS, there is no way I would have gone to UMKC on these current numbers. When I went as an OOS, Year 1-2 tuition was about 40 K, Year 3-6 tuition was 45.5 K.
2009-2010 TOTALS
In-state: 164,454
Regional (started in Fall 2007): 243,018
Out-of-State: 321,554
This does not include books, room and board, medical equipment, miscellaneous (fun, movies, laptop, clothes, etc.)
So talk this over with your parents, be realistic, and map this all out. This decision as well as going through the confusing world of financial aid, is WAY TOO HUGE to go about this alone, esp. now with the faltering economy. See how much debt you would be willing to put up with in loans. Most importantly don’t put all your eggs in one basket with this program. Investigate all the programs, and if you don’t make it into one of the combined programs that is financially viable or conducive to your career goals (i.e. you want to enter a competitive field), do the 4+4 like 98% of other doctors do.
Testing Credit
For those asking which AP Exams are good to take if you get into the program:
It really depends what major you wish to do: choosing a major
If you click on the link and go to the bottom, you’ll see a list of courses you should probably come in with depending on the major.
Majors (all Bachelor of Arts): Biology, Chemistry, Communications, Philosophy, Psychology, Sociology and the most commonly done one which is Liberal Arts.
Chemistry is hit or miss: here at UMKC the professor (Gounev) goes by the textbook and explains things very well so most med students do very well in the class - he teaches Chem I in the Fall.
Some take Chemistry when they come in the Fall starting w/Chem I (credit and GPA)
Some people take the AP/IB exam and get credit for Chem I and Chem II with Labs (but no GPA)
Some take Chem I and/or Chem II with Labs at an actual university:
- If you take it at any college/community college/university other than UMKC in the summer, you get credit, but no GPA
- If you take Chem I and/or Chem II at UMKC in the summer after graduating from senior year, you get credit and GPA
Common ones to AP/CLEP out of:
- English Language (English 110) - You can not AP out of English 225 (Sophomore Eng)
- Psychology (Psychology 210)
- US History (History 101, 102)
- US Government (Political Science 210)
- French/Spanish/German/Latin (10 hours of Foreign Language credit)
AP Scores needed: UMKC Registration and Records - Credit by Examination
CLEP Scores needed: UMKC Registration and Records - Credit by Examination
IB Scores needed: UMKC Registration and Records - Credit by Examination
Departmental Exam: UMKC Registration and Records - Credit by Examination
UMKC’s emphasis is more on rank than the actual numerical GPA (whether it’s weighted or unweighted) as so many schools have different ways of computing it. Some schools give extra grade points for honors classes, others don’t. Also the rigor of courses as displayed by your transcript is also important (number of Honors/Pre-AP/AP classes), but they are understanding as esp. for many high schools in rural Missouri, many do not offer AP courses (surprisingly) or don’t have many of them. Out-of-staters (Regional/Out-of-State) are measured on a different yardstick:
Six-year Program Application Requirements
Missouri Residents
The average accepted Missouri applicant has an ACT score of 29 and a rank within the top 10 percent of the graduating class.
Regional and Out-of-State Residents
The average accepted regional or out-of-state applicant has an ACT score of 30 and a rank within the top 5 percent of the graduating class.
Other than that, it doesn’t hurt to try to amass as many awards (academic/university organizations/etc) as you can.
az698,
Please let me know where to find your “PAGE 1 Of AZ1698’s Compilation”.
Thank to Happytograduate and You for your dedication to this website!
Ahh!!! The glitch moved my first page to #2!!!
Could a mod fix it? My second post should be #1.
HappytoGraduate,
Do you happen to know the attrition rate of those who enter the six-year combined BA/MD program at UMKC?
Froggie, if you go to this link and click on “PDF (75K)”, you’ll see it. It goes into great detail about the program, all in a completely positive light with no negatives whatsoever of course. However, it does list the attrition rate.
The article is from the journal Academic Medicine in April 2007: [ACADEMIC</a> MEDICINE - Abstract: Volume 82(4) April 2007 p 361-369 The University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine: Thirty-Five Years of Experience with a Nontraditional Approach to Medical Education.](<a href=“The University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine: T... : Academic Medicine”>The University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine: T... : Academic Medicine)
“As might be expected, the attrition rate in this school is higher than those of traditional four-year medical schools. Of all 3,377 students admitted at year one from 1970 through 2005, 20.6% left the program without the MD degree.”
“An ongoing challenge since the program’s inception has been to sustain adequate financial support for this state-supported school, particularly at a time when state budgets are tight. This situation has moved us to align our tuition revenues and state appropriation with our teaching mission, which has always been a primary objective at UMKC. Currently, approximately 90% of revenues from the state and from tuition directly support undergraduate instructional costs. Separate, explicit revenue streams support research and graduate medical education” —> Meaning that bc the school doesn’t get funding that well from the state, those expenses are transferred to the student by tuition. The School of Medicine and the University in general, is highly dependent on tuition costs from the student, which is why the tuition for medical students is unusually high. You are charged at the medical school tuition rate from the first year to all six years or longer (not just the medical school part).
Websites that will help you for anyone going into medicine, not just UMKC:
[AAMC:</a> Applying to Medical School](<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/start.htm]AAMC:”>Understanding the Process | Students & Residents)
The particularly good ones in that link:
(MD)2: Monetary Decisions for Medical Doctors
Curriculum Directory to see the different curriculums including combined programs however it doesn’t list all of them
and of course the 31 Questions website: [AAMC:</a> Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked](<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm]AAMC:”>http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm)
FWIW, as I’ve been out interviewing for residency positions, I’ve met two UMKC students who are about to graduate, and one resident who got her BA/MD from UMKC - all have said that they regret going through the program. I didn’t push for any specifics, but just thought people might want to know. Obviously it may be the right decision for some people, but for these graduates or soon to be graduates, there are issues that affected their opinion of their alma mater.
Rwishka:
I don’t understand how a lot of graduates I have spoken with have discussed many positive attributes of the program and how you have so many negative points about it. Did you have a really bad experience?
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Rwishka,
Please see Bigredmed’s post before this one, as well as my response to you from before when you asked that question, just so you know that I’m not just pulling this out of my ass. Going into this program is a huge, costly decision (esp. if you’re out-of-state) so it helps to stay informed. The compression of the program makes it difficult to leave without having to redo several years if you decide to apply for medical school the normal route (If u do the liberal arts degree - we do not do General Physics I/II, Organic Chemistry I/II or even General Biology I/II).
It’s not like Northwestern’s, Brown’s, BU’s and other programs where you do ALL the premed requirements as well as those that have you take the MCAT giving you the chance to apply to other schools if you want. There are no clean breaks in the program.
The caliber of BA/MD or BS/MD (assuming of course, you’re not interested in other combinations like MD/PhD, MD/MBA, MD/JD, which may be hard to know right now) is quite variable and sometimes talking to personal friends of yours may not be the best way to get the realities of a program.
I’m sorry, did I double post when asking the question? I was satisfied with your earlier reply. 
However, from what I’ve understood, most people take the liberal arts degree? Therefore, they don’t take Organic Chem at all? Isn’t that very important?
Hmm.
<hr>
By the way, I’m in-state.