Undecided! Is that OK?The curse of the second child

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi Crabbylady, I have not seen you online in a while and so it is nice to see you again, and oh boy, if we all stay here long enough, we go through each others' second child too, lol. I hope your first daughter has enjoyed her college (my alma mater if I recall correctly). And just off topic for a moment but my older D (who just finished freshman year too) is in the middle of driving 4500 miles to your city! She left eight days ago and reached Lake Louise in Alberta, Canada today and will be in your town in six more days and spending a week in Alaska once there. So from my neck of the woods to yours, lol. </p>

<p>Back to your topic....being "undecided" going into college with regard to a major academic or career interest is the most common "major" out there on applications and is PERFECTLY fine and acceptable. This is NOT a problem. When picking colleges, she can go by other criteria like location, size, atmosphere, etc. and as long as the college has a wide array of offerings academically, she will be fine. </p>

<p>I have one kid who went off to college undecided but with some "direction" (more on that in a moment) and one who has a passion in one area and has known what she has wanted to study and do as a career for most of her life. I don't think one of these paths is better than the next but simply different. For many fields, a kid would not even know if he/she would like it because they have not been able to study it before college. One reason one of my kids KNOWS what she wants to focus on is because in her particular passion area, it is one that she HAS explored fully her whole life so far and does not have to wait to find out if she likes it. Her area is musical theater. But one cannot do that in certain fields until college or adulthood. </p>

<p>When I mentioned that the older D was undecided and actually likes many different subjects, I also mentioned "direction". I think, when applying to colleges, if a kid has narrowed it to a couple areas of broad interest or possibilities, that direction can be helpful but it is not like any commitment. This older D thought she might like to study architecture because it combined several areas of strength and interest but she could not be sure she wanted to study this because it was not a subject in high school. But by having this possibility in mind, she began to explore it a bit in 11th grade...did a year long independent study in the field and also did a summer internship with an architect, enough so that she felt this was a possible area of interest so she had to narrow the college list down somehow and once she added in architecture as a major that the school might have SHOULD she decide later on to study it, she was able to knock the list down as to who had this field. She was unwilling to entering a five year BArch program because she was NOT ready to commit to this field at age 17, nor did she want to be locked into a majority of her coursework being outlined FOR her...she had other stuff she also wanted to study. (Again, this is different for the kid with the lifelong passion who is more than happy to be entering a professional degree program that does take up a hefty part of her four year schedule). Anyway, she never said she WOULD major in architecture but had explored it some as a possibility and then took some related courses first year at college. She has plans next year to include a few more, including a course at RISD. By then, maybe she will be ready to decide on a major. This summer she is doing a six week intensive at Harvard Design School whose purpose is to have students immerse themselves into exploring this field and to enable them to decide if they want to go into the field before making the big commitment at some point. So, this is an example of an undecided kid who likes many subjects (but was always good at math and science) but who also began to think about possibilities or direction in 11th grade and did a few things like the independent study and internship to help her start to rule something in or out. She contemplated engineering for a bit but ruled that out. So, sometimes there are ways to explore some possible careers for ones' interests or strengths and the maybe narrow it from zillions of areas to a few. As long as the college has many liberal arts courses and a prettty good array of academic offerings, your daughter will be just fine.</p>

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<p>Hi! Sorry I have taken so long to reply to everyone's posts, it's house guest season here.</p>

<p>Calmon:Your daughter is alive and well and sharing my daughters spirit.I was under the impression D2 had signed up for the new SAT's that many of her classmates took today, I was wrong, when I asked her about it, she said that she was so focused on her AP exams, she "just didn't get to it in time".....ok what next? NO we are not on track with the standardized tests, and she doesn't seem to be too worried about it YET.... Your daughter tells you everything...our's tells us NOTHING. D2 is quiet ,self directed,and fiercely independent.</p>

<p>I am steering the converstions to LAC's. I think these are more her style. From what I have seen of many science programs, they don't offer much room for exploration. Middle size, liberal, geography doesn't seem to be an issue, I have had a hard time accepting the idea that my daughters could be so far away,but D1 in Boston has been great about calling and sending pics, my guess is that D2 will too. They have no need to be close to each other in regards to colleges. They swim in very different ponds with their academic and EC interests.</p>

<p>Ariesathena: You have wonderful suggestions that I totally appreciate...Those are the very questions on our quiz to D2, which she says seem to be flexible on at this point. I have not a clue what the deal breakers would be. I am CERTAIN that she will not apply to the same school as her sister. She has spent her whole life being ----- little sister.</p>

<p>We really want D2 to make choices for herself and not what she thinks is Expected of her. D1 used words like Columbia, Brown, Hopkins, Harvard (Dad is a Yalie, so of course she applied to Harvard) most of you know where she ended up. D2 is somewhat haunted by those names, but that was D1's choice, we keep telling D2 that our only expectaions are that she is honest with herself and with others .She would be eaten alive at those schools IMHO, but I'm just guessing at this stuff.</p>

<p>Will plan more visits late fall, before she has to put pen to paper. She wants to look East. Her Dad will take her, this is special bonding time, he'll have her really alone in a car from Rhode Island to Maryland. They'll have great fun visiting the cities and schools.</p>

<p>Thanks everyone for your thoughts and support. Next year is going to be fun.</p>

<p>I have cut and pasted from Carolyn's post on the Summer thread her plan for her daughter, I have e-mailed it to D2, she needs to understand how much thought goes in to this process. College admissions may be a crap shoot (sometimes the want a football player, sometimes they take the musician...) but it's not a dart board.</p>

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<p>Crabbylady, please let us know when the trip is planned because it sounds like they MIGHT hit Brown (unless ya mean another school in RI!) and if so, I know my D would be more than happy to meet up, show them around, let her overnight in the dorm, etc.<br>
Susan
PS...she is on the AlCan Highway right now ;)</p>

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<p>Susan, Safe travels to your daughter. Thanks for the invitation, I'll let you know what I know. The ALCan is amazing. Hope they brought the bug spray, summer has been mild the mosquitos are wicked. They will enjoy 20 hrs of daylight. I am jealous of their road trip, it's such a beautiful ride.My husband is on his way to the Arctic Circle in the family minivan-definitely a guy trip, 400 miles of gravel road, my bladder would never accept,nothing but tundra as far as the eye can see.</p>

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<p>Crabbylady, it sounds to me like undecided on the major or course of study is not the issue here as much as undecided on the choice of college. The choice of major can wait. Many, many kids change and change again and even after graduating pursue an advanced degree in a totally different direction. This is the beauty of a liberal arts education!</p>

<p>The time start focusing in on the college short list, however, is now. </p>

<p>I can fully appreciate the difficulty of getting a teenager to sign on to the college search program. It seems so overwhelming and alien. There are two powerful anxieties at play: fear of rejection and fear of separation. Once they get over the first, the second kicks in.</p>

<p>The good news is that most everyone in your daughter’s peer group at her high school is in the same boat so even if she’s not talking about her plans to you, she’s talking – and listening – to her friends. This is a good place to start: What are her friends doing? Counselor giving any reasonable support?</p>

<p>I can certainly relate to what you say about open-ended geography:
[quote]
“In her heart, I don't think she knows Maine from Nevada when asked where she'd like to live geographically.”

[/quote]
We live overseas and my son’s sense of American geography looked like the New Yorker Magazine map of Manhattan. (I guess being in Alaska could give the same skewed impression of the “lower 48.” :) ) He couldn’t articulate where he wanted to live because he really didn’t have a basis for comparison.</p>

<p>In the end I just arbitrarily drew geographic boundaries to include the North East plus the Eastern Midwest where there were a wide range of schools of different sizes, levels of selectivity, and personalities within easy visiting distance of each other. Sure we missed some great colleges in the South and West, but I accept that you can’t get to them all. Once we started visiting, though, the excitement and anticipation started snowballing and rolled right over the initial blasé-ness. </p>

<p>It also became very clear after seeing a wide range of college types and sizes what appealed and what didn’t. After the grand tour of 14 schools my son’s pre-visit list was literally turned upside down and inside out: his top two choices fell off the list, two last minute add-ons (including his eventual ED choice) rose to the top. </p>

<p>I just took a look at your daughter’s profile on the Junior parents thread. I hope Williams is on her short list as it seems to fulfill many requirements: small to medium, no Greek, great music performance opportunities, lots of track and x-country options both club and D3 varsity, MOUNTAINS, plus excellent science/physics/astronomy in a liberal arts context. They also offer a semester’s program in Marine Biology at Mystic Seaport (possible tie in to Science at Sea?).</p>

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<p>I don't think it is a curse at all. By taking different course in different departments, your D can get a true sampling of a wonderful education before choosing a major. And for someone who is not picky about the geographics, you can really focus on a school that has a good variety of quality academics and not be so limited. It is frustrating when you mention, say, Syracuse to a kid, and he does not want to consider it when you think it would be a great fit, because he hates the cold. It is also difficult when you get kids who want to stay within a couple of hours from home and are only considering all of the schools all of their classmates like, and they are all selective schools. I know several kids who would probably have been happy at Pomona or Davidson or Carlton, but those schools never made their lists, and Swarthmore, BC, GT, Williams is on everyone's list from their schools and communities making the odds even greater they won't get in. And many times you feel that some of the constraints these kids get abaout schools, are really not going to be an issue once they get to the school. I know one young lady so desperate to go to Boston, that she picked a school that really is not a good fit for her. If she had opened her mind a bit more, and not insisted on Boston, I can think of many, many schools that I am sure she would have loved had she not narrowed her search the way she did. And it was really for no good reason other than she diecided that Boston was where she wanted to be. There are times when the stipulations are indeed worthwhile but young people sometimes get funny about these things, and I feel at their age they can be more flexible and adapt and enjoy many environments.</p>

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<p>Well Crabbylady, my daughter actually decided it was time to talk colleges with me 2 nights ago -- of course she did it by coming in at 10:30 pm and insisting we had to draw up a list right then and there. Good thing I had done my homework! She was meeting with her gc the next day, so I guess he had asked that from her. Her list is all over the map, literally and figuratively.</p>

<p>One thing I'd suggest as far as geography goes is to focus on type, rather than specific location. Climate: warm? rainy? snowy? Campus environment: rural, small city, suburb, big city? What about a small town near a big city? A small school in a big city vs. a large school in a small college town vs. small school way out in the middle of nowhere. Near water? (river, lake or ocean?) Mountains? </p>

<p>The other thing is to develop a good range of schools from safety to reach. The best advice is to start with the safeties - but when my daughter wanted to talk the other night, she had the Princeton Review Best 357 College book in hand, and wanted to use the A to Z method. PR has a selectivity rating, with 99 being the highest. I told her as a rule of thumb she could look at schools with a rating of 98 as being reaches (99=virtually impossible) - 94-97 as being "good bets", 93 and below as being safeties. That was of course based on my own daughter's stats - I had already looked at a lot of colleges to get a sense of the typical SAT range so I had familiarized myself with their numbering system. PR isn't gospel - but when you are going to go over 350 colleges in 45 minutes, you have to settle for what you can, and it was probably best under the circumstances to give her a quick and objective way to evaluate whether or not a college belonged on her list. She ended up with a list of 49 names, which her GC marked up for her using a system of 1-3 x's to indicate his opinion of her chances at each. That actually is a very workable beginning - my son's initial list in September of Senior year was also about 45 college names. </p>

<p>I don't quite agree with Jamimom about the exasperation of dealing with a kid who will only think about a sunny climate or a favorite city -- at least you have some boundaries. Otherwise the task is impossible - the reality is that there really are a lot of excellent colleges to choose from, and as much as we parents would love to steer our kids in a particular direction, they can do well at just about any college that is good enough to merit a mention in the PR or Fiske guide. The bottom line is that the kid does have to live there - and the physical environment really can end up having more to do with the kid's happiness than the academic environment. My son drew political boundaries -- no "red" state and nothing south of the Mason-Dixon line. Of course he missed looking at some great schools that way... but believe me, he managed to find many more schools than he needed in the blue states.</p>

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<p>We also used a variation of Calmom's PR method. Ultimate safeties were an in-state public and an in-state LAC, so we weren't looking at selectivity as much, we were more interested in matches and reaches. We told daughter that we would only pay (we knew it would be full price) for top notch academics, so I dogeared every school that had 90+ score for academics (plus a couple in the very high 80s that I knew were possible safety-matches). Then she took the book and spent one long evening reading about each dogeared school. Did I influence her too much? Maybe I don't know, but truth is we would have been reluctant to foot the bill for a school with poor academics for our academically inclined daughter. Also, I paid no attention to an other aspect of the schools, didn't even pay too much attention to the names - even dogeared Deep Springs, which earned a general round of laughter.
It took actual visits and the onset of senior year to make the process seem real.</p>

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<p>It's funny though, how many times I have seen a kid say absolutely no foul weather school, and he ends up at Colgate, Michigan or Cornell. Or someone says NE corridor only and ends up at Vanderbilt or Tulane. Kids often draw these lines just to have some lines to draw, and when something comes up that interests them, they will make the exceptions. Although it is much, much easier to look at small schools in the NE with a good English program with a preppy student body, most kids are pretty open about these things and often end up liking schools that don't fit those criterion.</p>

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<p>Crabbylady, My daughter has absolutely no idea what she wants to major in - it varies from history to art to psychology to french to sociology to any number of other "gee that sound fun" subjects depending on what time of day you catch her and whether she's been fed recently. I'm sure she'll figure it all out eventually, and probably end up majoring in and doing something for a career that has never even crossed her mind yet.</p>

<p>When we started looking at colleges, I asked her to think about something she knows: her high school universe. What, I asked her, does she like best about her high school? What does she like least? Who are her favorite teachers and what style do they use in teaching? How would she describe her group of friends - did she want to be around similar people in college, different types, or a mix? What other group(s) of people at her school does she particularly like or wish she could get to know better? What group(s) does she particularly dislike? Why? </p>

<p>All of the answers to these questions, helped us to start narrowing down what she did and didn't want in a very general sense. The things she likes best about her high school: sense of community, diversity, overall size, small class sizes, lots of discussion classes, faculty expects students to be committed and responsible, attention to spiritual side of student lives. Things she doesn't like: too many kids from rich families trying to impress others with their wealth, religion class requirements, rigid curriculum requirements, every one lives some distance from the school so she can't get together with her friends easily, too much focus on sports, not enough liberal and artsy people.</p>

<p>This information gave her a framework to work in when she first started looking at schools --- she knew she wanted a college that was LIKE her high school in the most important ways, but DIFFERENT in specific other ways. </p>

<p>It really helped her to focus this way because "college" is too broad a concept for most 17-year-olds. They need to start with what they know before they can conceptualize where they're going. It's the same thing with majors: Most 17-year-olds have been exposed to 6 or 7 subject areas, yet there are literally hundreds of possible majors and thousands of careers out there. Rather than focus on specific majors, I think kids should focus on what they enjoy about their favorite subjects (i.e., hands on research, scientific inquiry, working with numbers, artistic expression, reading and evaluating, etc.) to define broad areas that they might pursue in college, rather than being limited right off the bat to those 6 or 7 subjects they know about. :)</p>

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<p>Carolyn, your approach with your daughter is exactly the approach my son followed, and there is a pitfall in that. My son loved his small high school and his close relationship with teachers there, so he wanted a college "just like" his high school. He was absolutely certain he wanted a small LAC with very small classes. And he was right -- for the first year. But by spring of his second year he was restless. So in hindsight, I see the problem is that if a student uses their high school experience as a guide they may end up choosing a college that is perfect for the high school kid that is making the choice... but not so good for the college kid they grow into. </p>

<p>I don't know where we parents can get the crystal ball to see into our kid's futures, but I do think that in choosing the college we need to get the kid thinking beyond high school. "What do you like now" is a good question -- but "what kind of person do you want to be in 2 or 3 years" and "where do you think that kind of person will do best" are also good questions, even though they require a lot more speculation. </p>

<p>My daughter is also in a small high school that she likes very much. I went to a large university, and have been spending some time talking to my daughter about what I liked about that experience; I hope she will also talk to her brother about what he liked and disliked about his LAC experience. You are right that a 17 year old doesn't really have much of a concept of what college is like --but we can help them by sharing our experiences. I am also hoping that my daughter keeps in touch by email with her high school friends who are graduating and going to a variety of different types of schools this year, to get a sense of what they experience as well.</p>

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<p>Yes, you're right of course Calmom. There's no science to this. But, my daughter isn't seeking to replicate her high school - in fact, she's seeking to avoid the things she doesn't like while keeping some of the most important things she does like. Ironically, most of her friends are looking at schools that are very, very much like her high school in terms of student body and culture. She definitely doesn't want that!</p>

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<p>Echoing what Calmom said, my D wanted a "non-elite" large school near or in a city, just like her HS. BAsically got that (not so much the city), and as I've told the story here many times before, couln't've been more miserable, and ended up transfering to a selective LAC in the middlle of nowhere, where she spent three happy years. Go figure.</p>

<p>BTW, CRabbylady, she named bio as her intended major, ended up poli sci. S said astro, and at this point, end of frosh year, is totally undecided. So I go with the it-really-doesn't-matter crowd. I do hope he finds a major before he graduates, though.</p>

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<p>Calmom: My S decided on a school based on what he thought he might like in 2 or 3 years, and I think it may have been right for him. A small LAC was appealing, but he was concerned that since he really has no clue what he is interested in, he might find he made a poor choice. One way he came to that decision was that he asked the tour guide at the LAC "if he knew people who had transferred to another school?" The answer was yes. He then asked if he knew "why they transferred?" The answer in each case was to study something not fully offered at the LAC. Good questions I thought, and a reasonable decision based on his interests (which range from cinema studies to pre-med with no clear favorites).</p>

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<p>All subsequent children always get the short shrift. It's an inherited behavior (read instinctual) of mothers. No two children ever had the same parent. </p>

<p>It’s a design of nature.</p>

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<p>Toblin, My son (Second born) would no doubt agree with you, but my daughter (first born) complains that she has always been the guinea pig for her parents grand schemes in child-raising. :)</p>