Undecided! Is that OK?The curse of the second child

<p>Reality check: D2 is an amazing young woman who had never forgiven us for her birth order.
She's 17, 18 in Nov, finishing her junior year with great grades she has worked hard for. Ranked 20/450, taking aggressive course load, heavy on sciences. For months we have been asking her to think about colleges. It's becoming clear, she terrified of the choices and the decisions she's being asked to make. In her heart, I don't think she knows Maine from Nevada when asked where she'd like to live geographically.
When we discuss "possible majors", she knows she likes science, but not sure she wants to do that for her life. She wonders out loud if she likes physics because she has had great physics and math teachers who have inspired her best work.
She is being asked what she's "passionate" about and she really doesn't know.She's being told to "study what you like" - she likes lots of things.......
D2 sees the footsteps of a wonderful father who went to Yale and Hopkins, and an older sister firmly planted in Boston at her "first choice" elite school, studying what she has been passionate about for many years and embracing a new life.</p>

<p>Best advice I can give (if it's possible): have her overnight at various schools, some in cities, some in rural areas. Do a mix of large and small schools as well. Have her overnight with sis - she might love the school, too. (By the way, she sounds like a lot of my friends, who knew what they liked but didn't know how to get it into a major until, oh, March of sophomore year.)</p>

<p>Try other questions: does she want a core curriculum, or would she like to choose all of her own courses? How strong in science does she want - a technical institute or a school like her older sister's, which is strong in science but also focused on liberal arts? Warm weather or cold? Would she want to be in a school with parties, or with a more pizza-and-movie social scene? (If she isn't a drinker, avoid schools with a lot of frats or in rural areas.) Does she want to be among upper-middle-class prep school kids, or does she want more economic diversity? What about political atmosphere? Is she more comfortable being more liberal or more conservative than her peers? Does she want to be a stand-out student or be among students who are more talented than she is?</p>

<p>For your own peace of mind (and for hers), find the archieved Twinkle's threads. Read through all of the angst, worry, stress, and realize that all of those kids are now thrilled and happy and adjusted at their schools. She's picking a college, not a spouse.</p>

<p>Sorry..hit the wrong button...
Have any other parents seen this in their kids? What do you tell them? How do you tell them that UNdecided is ok? What schools offer the best range of choices? She would be lost in a large university.
We are encouraging academic risk in college. She's taken all the "right" courses in hs. It's her time to be creative.
Open to ideas here. Thanks</p>

<p>For helping her get "decided" about colleges, ariesathena has made great suggestions.</p>

<p>For helping her get "decided" about her possible majors, my opinion would be "Don't." Many of these kids who feel decided change their majors forthwith upon arrival at college or after a semester or three. So she shouldn't feel pressured. Focus on schools which are strong in a variety of areas and let her explore that first year or so. My S is "decided" on Engineering, has spent some time job shadowing which seems to have confirmed that, but even so, he chose a U which also has Lib. Arts & Sciences, Business,... so he can change if he wants. My biggest disappointment with his being decided is that he DOESN'T get to sample very much in his first semesters as that engineering curriculum is quite defined.
Revel in the possiblities that her undecidedness will leave open to her.</p>

<p>Don't worry about defining a specific "passion". That is ONE way to show your best self in the application process, but not the ONLY or BEST way.</p>

<p>Let her focus on the fun aspect of the college search - "trying on" different locations, atmospheres, sizes. The rest will follow.</p>

<p>Good luck.
crabbylady -we cross-posted and obviously you are on the wavelenght I'm proposing. I know from a close friend whose S is undecided that she also feels pressure that her S doesn't "know" what he wants. Since he is a Sr., he is now actually registering for Freshman classes. So you are not alone.
This pressure to "know" is an artificial one, so don't let it get to you.</p>

<p>We can give the best help if you/she can give an idea of what she does care about - you have mentioned not a large U. What else can you tell so far - urban/suburban/rural? artsy vs. preppy vs. quirky vs. sports-oriented? Greek vs. not etc.? You will get lots of suggestions once we know more.</p>

<p>Have her visit a science/tech school - perhaps when she visits sis in Boston? - but don't push it. Sounds like she needs a school with a variety of strengths to sample. Does she have leaving home concerns? Is she in Alaska with you? Wherever she goes it may be relatively far from Alaska, so would it be better to be within bus range of Boston? These are considerations that may make her more comfy. She doesn't have to know what she wants to do, she just needs ideas about where she wants to go.</p>

<p>First off, I think it is very common for 17 year olds to not have a particular passion. Often, they like lots of different things and are still exploring who they are and what they want to be. My son was having trouble narrowing things down. (At one point he said that there were probably some great colleges and Europe and maybe he shouldn't limit himself to the US. So dad and I limited it for him!) </p>

<p>I think this is an area where parents can readily be involved. Knowing what I knew about my son (my #3) I came up with a list of about 25 schools that he might want to look at. This helped him to start to focus. My schools were various sizes and various locations but are all in his academic range and include the activities that I think he is most likely to pursue. I bought the Fiske guide and encouraged him to look through it. We also took a college tour in a city near us just to get the ball rolling. He has now generated his own list. His list includes quite a few of the schools I suggested but a few of his own discovery as well. We will visit schools this summer. </p>

<p>I think we spend a lot of time getting kids to define a passion that may not exist. We also overwhelm them with choices. Keep reinforcing the idea that it is OK not to know what you want to do. My #1 was very focused and passionate, my #2 not at all. We finally convinced #2 that he really was more "normal" than his older brother. Also, giving your daughter a suggested list to start with may help her from feeling so overwhelmed by choices. Emphasize that the list is only suggested and that you are open to other schools she may discover along the way. The thing I like about the Fiske book is that it suggests other schools that are similar to the one you are looking at. Good luck.</p>

<p>"Undecided" is the most popular potential major on the applications to my daugther's school and I believe that is a widespread phenomenom.</p>

<p>IMO, a 17 year old high-school student should be "undecided". I would actually be more concerned if my daughter actually believed she knew her life path at age 17, before setting foot in a college classroom or living away from home.</p>

<p>To me, any discussion of college majors for a high school student should be in the form of, "here are some areas I think I might enjoy and, therefore, would like to preserve as options when I select my freshman courses." I think it's important that we communicate to our kids that the majority of college kids change their intended major at least once, sometimes late in the game. My daughter told me about a friend of hers at college, a graduating senior. He's an honors chemistry major, has decided he never wants to see another chem lab as long as he lives, and will be starting law school next year.</p>

<p>Shennie has an excellent idea - give her a "universe" of schools to start with. We did a variation of that with our daughter and it helped jump start her.</p>

<p>for some, undeclared is a badge of honour. it shows that you are ok with not having everything decided, and it is an invitation to try out new things; this can either lead to a new passion or realization that an old interest is really a passion. Regardless, it can be interesting and challenging along the way.</p>

<p>While S1 was looking at schools, we pegged him as 'a math/science guy', but only as a general direction of interest. After 1 year of college, he is now thinking music minor, classics minor, and applied math major. Of course, that is just the direction du jour. </p>

<p>For myself, I was undeclared and focused on film and literature during my first year at school. Then, realized math was what I truly loved (and was reasonably good at it). Ended up with a math / cs double major.</p>

<p>The pressure to decide on a major (and by extension on one's life and career) and to have 'a passion', should be tempered with the reality that we don't always know and need to experience life to discover these.</p>

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When we discuss "possible majors", she knows she likes science, but not sure she wants to do that for her life. She wonders out loud if she likes physics because she has had great physics and math teachers who have inspired her best work.

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<p>See, you guys ARE making progress. Your daughter is doing what most of our kids do: reaching conclusions and doling out little morsels of information bit by bit.</p>

<p>From your daughter's comments above, you can rule out the tech schools completely. It would be nuts for someone saying "I'm not sure I want to do science for the rest of my life" to attend a tech school.</p>

<p>Give it time. Sometime, when you least expect it, she'll drop another little nugget of informationa and you'll be able to eliminate another group of schools.</p>

<p>For now, focus on the big picture stuff. Give her a first hand look at small/medium/large schools and rural/suburban/urban schools. Those visits will probably cull quite a few more options from the list.</p>

<p>My S was very "decided" in his school choice (which resulted inan ED app), but isstill "undecided" in his major. I tell him it's wonderful that he'll get to explore with such an open mind. I would rather have him make a choice of major while he's in college, after exploring at that level, as opposed to making a lifelong decision while having the "yo, how do we get rich?" discussion with his friends during lunch in high school. </p>

<p>Some kids have lifelong passions, which are evident much sooner in their lives. For those who don't develop such passions so early, I certainly wouldn't push for a decision just to say there is one. What better place than a college campus to find one's calling. </p>

<p>Finding the right school is tough, though. For the "undecided" student, pick a school with many options. I dare say that I was grateful that my son's college of choice has a somewhat pre-professional bent. At least he'll be around other students who have "post college" lives in mind. He probably needs a little of that. He's such a free spirit. </p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

<p>I think the big picture stuff that interested dad suggests should probably include schools which have well defined and organized core curricula. Well designed cores provide students, particularly those who are undecided, a balanced group of courses across academic disciplines that provide a great educational foundation as well as exposure to different areas of study. My S was undecided science starting out last year and now is passionate about philosophy. His eyes were opened to philosophy because of the core at his school. While he may have stumbled on it himself, he credits the core with helping him find his passion, at least the current one.</p>

<p>Good advice above: one thing I've seen work a couple of times is to make a list of things/majors/locations/types of people to be excluded or avoided, and then look over the list to see what you've learned.</p>

<p>Sometimes you know what you don't want even if you cant decide among options you do want.</p>

<p>Random thought about "undecided" majors: </p>

<p>Aside from finding a good school, let her know that she won't really have to have things figured out until she's 20 in terms of a major. If she takes some calc, some chem, and some physics alongside of English, foreign language, and economics during her first year, she'll leave her options wide-open for math or the sciences. By then, she'll figure out what she wants to focus on (or avoid) and can continue.</p>

<p>You can also suggest majors like chemical physics (what I would have done had I known about it!), which combines chem, physics, and math. Aside from that, a major is only 10 out of 30-40 courses - so she shouldn't stress about how those 10 courses need to be arranged right now. </p>

<p>Try medium-sized schools which are strong in the sciences, but not overwhelming (i.e. the kids who aren't die-hards can make it through). Have her visit her sis, because she would probably really like that environment as a starting place. </p>

<p>When all else fails, I'll adopt her. :) I thought I was an engineer at age 17, then "followed my passion" and realised by age 21 that it was not my passion. Happens to a lot of the supposedly passionate, directed people of that age.</p>

<p>I've been very candid with my kids about the lack of reliable criteria for them to decide on school/major, and the fact that they're going to have to go ahead and make a decision anyway, and it'll be OK. Fortunately, I was thrust into my own undergraduate college by a fortuitous series of events rather than planning, went in as a science major and ended up as a lawyer (a long story they've heard before), so the random decision/OK outcome theme doesn't come off as phony. It's tougher for you, since it appears D2 has two "planned" examples in front of her - but how about you? Did you know what you were going to do with your life when you were 17? Maybe some personal experience with muddling through on limited information and plans could be shared here.</p>

<p>I'm 55, and still undecided, though I think I want to be a pixie.</p>

<p>
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I think the big picture stuff that interested dad suggests should probably include schools which have well defined and organized core curricula.

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<p>I respectfully disagree with this advice. To me, arcane details, like how a school stipulates distribution requirements, are so unimportant that they shouldn't even be considered until a kid has a working list of a dozen schools that meet his or her "big picture" needs. I see kids get hung up on a "core curriculum" or "no distribution requirements" and completely overlook the important stuff like size, location, campus culture, and so forth. When you actually get down to the brass tacks of of picking a schedule, the specific language of the "distribution requirements" usually ends up producing exactly the same distribution. If anything, a rigid "core curriculum" with mandatory classes is most often a negative because it results in huge introductory class sizes.</p>

<p>I happen to think that every student should sample courses across all three major disciplines: sciences, social sciences, and humanities. But, any student can do that, with or without distribution requirements. Hence: non-issue.</p>

<p>Crabbylady, I'm going through the same thing. Lots of stress - my daughter wants me to give her a list of colleges that would be right for her, and to tell her why I think they would be a good match, but gets angry when I ask what she is interested in or what type of school environment she is looking for. When I say I'm making a list of colleges that offer majors in X... she says, she's not sure she wants to study X. So I ask, what else she might be interested in, so I can look for that, too -- and she's angry again. She's too busy now, let's talk about that next month. </p>

<p>I tell her I'm happy to bow out -- I had a great time at UC and I'm sure she'd be happy there too - and then she rants about how she wants to get out of California and doesn't want to attend a UC. Again, the ball's in my court. I can see why people hire college advisors. It isn't the "undecided" part that bothers me, it's the total lack of willingness to work with me to develop a basic list, coupled with her expectation that I will give her a list.</p>

<p>My daughter also says she doesn't have any "passion"... except one: her "passion" is people. She says she never gets tired of spending time with her friends. I'm almost inclined to use the Princeton Review's top 10 party school listings as my guide -- this for the same kid who visited U. of Chicago last January and came home in love with the school. OK - I knew all along she wasn't the U of C "type".... but you can see how this all leaves a mom confused. </p>

<p>If she would just tell me that she was going to handle it all herself, I'd be fine with it. It's a no-brainer to do an application to the UC's -- one app fits all, usually the school gc's or teachers schedule a day when the kids can all work on their apps together, no recs required. It's the combination of her wanting me to find the schools and refusing to discuss what she wants that drives me batty. </p>

<p>Maybe it is a D2 thing.... things were soooo much easier with my son. He procrastinated, but he was very clear as to what he wanted and specific as to what he wanted from me. I wouldn't have thought it - my son's the type who pretty much spoke to me in grunts and one-word sentences all the way through high school. My daughter is the one who has to tell me every excruciating detail of her life -- unfortunately this leaves me an expert on her social life, not her academic life. (Hmmm... maybe I should be developing a list of which schools have which sororities instead of worrying about majors.....)</p>

<p>Unfortunately some students don't sample widely across subjects and distribution requirements can be worked around at many schools. For a truly undecided student thinking about a core versus a no core school can be a factor.</p>

<p>crabby, I don't think it's a curse and I don't think it has ANYthing to do with being a second child. My D knows the 2 areas she likes (singing and science, the 2 s's and loves theater) but doesn't have a clue what to do in what order in the long run. This is fine with me...indicates that she'll do well in a LAC-type environment. Did some college tours this spring break; my hubby and I decided where to go and she came along and smiled. Expressed a few general opinions about the type of environment she'd like. She has not opened a SINGLE college brochure. They come, she leaves them on the table; when they get to be a mess, I stack them up and put them in the study. She's taken her standardized tests, all except one, standby or late registration because I found out when and where they were. She told me today that she just feels too crazy and stressed to even think about colleges yet...and that she doesn't want to think about leaving home yet. I think this last bit is the real key. All fine with me. Testing is on schedule, course selection is rigorous, and she sings and dances up a storm. When she's home from her arts camp at the end of July and has time to sleep and breathe, I figure she'll get caught up in the excitement along with her friends and make more of her wishes known. Not to worry.</p>