<p>It’s a good thread that fills an unmet need. PaperChaserPop, thanks for starting it! The only thing nagging me is why someone else (or I) didn’t start it sooner.</p>
<p>I think kids should be encouraged to reach for their dreams…BUT I also feel kids should know what is realistic and what is a reach. My kid applied to ONE reach school. It was a HUGE reach (she was rejected…no surprise…it was a reach). I think the kids on this thread should KNOW and understand that these schools are reaches for them. They also need to know that there is nothing wrong with them if they don’t get accepted…as 80-90% of the applicants also do not get accepted to these schools. They also need to have other schools on their application list that they would be thrilled to attend that are more likely admits for them. If all of that is in place…go for it…apply to top 20 schools. Just don’t ever be disappointed if you don’t get accepted regardless of your GPA. MANY very well qualified applicants are denied admission to these schools every year, not just kids with lower GPAs or SAT scores.</p>
<p>oldfort - Fair question. </p>
<p>DS1 finished middle school with straight A’s and we all expected (including himself) the trend to continue. We had talked to him more than once on the importance of keeping up good grades. His freshman GPA was decent, but it took a hit in his sophomore year when his EC time went up considerably. It also took a hit in his junior year when gfs became a big time sink (and continues to be). He still wants to apply to a few top colleges, so it wasn’t just mom and I forcing his hand. I had more than one honest talk with him about his chances given his <3.6 GPA. So here we are. I want to do my best to help him given this reality.</p>
<p>To be honest here, although I knew GPA was important, I didn’t really realize the close-to-decisive weight of GPA in the T20 admission process until his junior year. Things have changed dramatically since I went through this.</p>
<p>PCP - understood, it is not easy to be a parent. Our own experience - D1 with over 4.0 GPA unweighted, with unhooked EC (pre-professional ballet), was rejected by her top 6 schools in a matter of 5 minutes (wonders of internet) As I rocked her to sleep that night (first time in 10 years), she asked me if I was still proud of her. We were also naive to believe she had a very good chance of getting into top 10s given her stats, we just didn’t realize how competitive it would be. I wouldn’t do it again to D2. There are a lot of good schools outside of top 20s. As we see how D2 progresses through high school, we are going to manage her expectations better.</p>
<p>Things have changed dramatically since we all went through this. I worked in admissions for two years after college and that didn’t prepare me to understand what matters today. </p>
<p>With initiatives to bring in the low income, the middle income, more internationals, kids from underrepresented states, first generation, more development kids and athletes for sports that weren’t there 30 years ago, these schools have little room left for the kids with near perfect GPAs. </p>
<p>This same discussion could, and should, be happening on threads for kids with 3.95’s–I have two fitting that description who didn’t get into their non HYPS choices the first time they tried.</p>
<p>So I could not agree more with the importance of really driving home the realities with this group. With our oldest, DH and I really wished we had known to as we felt he thought he let us down when the rejections came. We were so wrapped up in his excitement, how special he is in our eyes and the norms of three decades ago that we forgot to prepare him for rejection.</p>
<p>You know William and Mary has never been on my radar. He’s not crazy about going south, but I can’t say Williamsburg seems overly southern too me. DH won’t like the drive - it’s even longer than Pittsburgh! However size is fine and it’s not completely out in the country and has access to cities. Definitely worth considering. (Though American history is his least favorite sort.) I’ve got no problem with schools out of the top 20 - after all mathson turned down #1 for #22. :)</p>
<p>mathmom, the IR major at W&M is interesting – it’s multidisciplinary and twice the size of a typical major (64 credits vs. 30, IIRC). S2 talked to a prof down there about it, and was told it was one of the toughest majors there, but very, very good. He liked the combo of history, polisci and econ involved.</p>
<p>I was hoping to make the list shorter not longer!</p>
<p>I haven’t read this entire post, but I have seen little mention of SAT IIs. Although many T20 schools require at least one or two (or three) SAT IIs, I think that they can be a great way to show a kid’s mastery of at least some subjects. A 700-800 on an SAT II can be a real boost and as a practical matter is about the only thing they can do academically after Junior year.</p>
<p>Turning in 3 SAT IIs in the 700+ range would not provide real boost at these schools; however, not having them would be a concern. The T20s expect 700+ SAT IIs from the applicants. So our kids would have to do well on the SAT IIs just to avoid further handicap.</p>
<p>Now 4 years out S1 with a 3.46 was admitted to a top 10 school. It does happen, though I agree it may be rare (one kid he knew, not hooked at all, had a 2.9!).</p>
<p>the last post is a real eye opener… for sure i thought some great sat II’s in the mix would be a tip…just shows how much i have to learn.
what a balancing act: on one hand to encourage, on the other to provide reality checks
i am struggling now with how much pressure to apply…too little and he turns into a video game playing,cell phone addict and too much and he gets overwhelmed… i guess the kids don’t realize how much is at stake til it is almost too late…or am i just being pessimistic after reading all these posts?</p>
<p>Both my s’s (who attended an academically challenging private school) had unweighted GPA’s around 3.6 (I think older s’s unweighted was slightly higher- maybe 3.72, but younger s’s unweighted was only around 3.55-3.6 tops). Their weighted GPA’s, as they took a rigorous courseload, was higher-- younger s’s was a 3.82, older s’s was a 4.01. Both were NMF’s and had very strong SATIs (1570/1600 and 2290/2400 - both kids took it only once) and SAT II’s (lowest SATII was a 730, taken in the 9th grade- the rest were all 770-800). Older s skirted the top 10% of his HS class - tho since they dont officially report this we were never quite sure. Ultimately I think he was just one person below the top 10%). Younger s was in the top 15% but not the top 10. Both graduated summa cum laude.</p>
<p>Older s applied ED to a top 20 and was accepted, so didnt apply to the other 2 top 20’s he was interested in. Younger s was accepted to a top 20 but chose a top 50 with a full tuition scholarship (the top scholarship offered by the school). Both were very involved in community service and won awards for their volunteerism. So it isn’t all about the GPA, folks. And they had no hook, unless you consider their lengthy and clear committment to commuity service a “hook” (both were dedicated and committed since the age of 12 and 14 respectively). BTW, older s graduated from his top 20 university in Mech. Engineering, a very tough major, with something like a 3.78 GPA. So it can be done.</p>
<p>There’s a reason they’re called “Reaches”. Everyone wants to go to these schools, or at least it seems that way here on CC, but not everyone can or should go to a top 20. If the stats are to be believed, the top 20 are populated by intelligent, driven type-A personalities. They are the kids who have pushed themselves, or been pushed by parents, to excel from day 1, from getting into the best day care to foreign language after-school programs to educational summer camps. Their EC lists read like resumes for Nobel Peace Prize winners. Some EC lists are so complex I don’t believe they can be accomplished in the available hours in a year. </p>
<p>There are one or two or six of these kids at every high school in America. If you’re child isn’t one of them now, what makes you believe they’re going to happy being surrounded by an entire university of them? Are those really the classmates you want for your kids?</p>
<p>By junior year you’re 3/4 done with high school, in short, “you are what you are”. Ramping up the ECs and piling on 6 APs for senior year isn’t going to change anything. You have one semester left to show colleges something, if you struggle it will just prove to them that you’re not “worthy”. If you succeed it will only raise the question, why didn’t you start sooner? Either way your playing from weakness.</p>
<p>A 3.5 GPA is not a disaster. It’s half "A"s and half "B"s. Will it get you into to Harvard or Stanford? No, it won’t, but why should it? Do you really want to run with those sharks when you can still get "A"s and "B"s at your state flagship while still having a little fun?</p>
<p>Four years ago S1 was 3.45/2090. He didn’t get into his first or second choice. He went to a school outside the top 25, found his passion and now grad schools are calling him. Someone already said it, if you want to go top 20 but your not ready now, bust your butt in college and apply for grad school.</p>
<p>As for ratings, the top eleven, (the eight Ivies, Stanford, the two trade schools - CalTech & MIT), are always going to be at the top. The rest spend their time rearranging the deck chairs. You’re not any smarter or dumber if your school moved 3 spots over last year.</p>
<p>^ I do agree with Vinceh to a large degree. PLUS I would add that going to a ‘top’ school does not guarantee success. I know plenty of people who went to their ‘way down the rankings list’ state college and are extremely successful. On the other hand, I’ve met more than one top 10er who were totally duds. All going to a top school says about a person is they were book smart, were driven to get good grades and they figured out a system that worked for them in order to achieve that. Means nothing in the ‘real world.’</p>
<p>Having said that, my son wants to apply to a few top 20 schools. He understands (because we’ve told him repeatedly) that it would be like winning the lottery. It’s his choice to apply but he’s known for years that he would have to do a certain amount of work to get in those schools and he made the choice not to do it. It’s been years of frustration for us but motivation has to come from within. Not getting in will be a valuable lesson for him.</p>
<p>If he gets in, great. If not, I’m not sweating it. All we’re looking for is for him to find a good fit and find his passion.</p>
<p>I do like this thread because a lot of us are in the same boat. Kids who want to go to a top 20 but are not likely to get in. Good discussion.</p>
<p>This is an extremely interesting thread and it’s nice to know there’s some moral support out there. One wrinkle for my son is that he’s a dual-national in a demanding IB program in Europe, with very little time for EC activities. He has decent SATs but his grades took a nosedive in 11th grade (this seems to be a boy thing). Does being an international student help his chances with top LACs or should he scale back his aspirations? He is very demoralized at the moment and is having trouble getting started on his essay - which at this point is probably his best hope of standing out.</p>
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<p>I think about this a lot, and yesterday I had a conversation with my son about this. I asked him to imagine being surrounded by a college classroom full of the most driven, Type A, grade grubbing students that he knows at his high school. He just shrugged his shoulders and said he would be more likely to work hard if he were surrounded by students who worked hard all the time.</p>
<p>I still worry. Hes a kid who has rarely broken a sweat in achieving a B+ GPA. The few times when Ive KNOWN him to work hard hes done excellent work, but I dont know if he could sustain such an effort. Im confident he has the brainpower, but not confident at all that he has the drive.</p>
<p>Heres a part of the equation for which I may get flamed. Most (certainly not all) of the high achieving students at his school are girls, specifically the types of girls who write copious answers to essay questions, who go to the teachers after school for extra help, who form study groups that also function as social groups, who collaborate on club activities that seem to attract mostly other girls, etc. In other words, they do things hes just not into and theyre not students he admires or looks up to. I might add that these girls also turn in homework on time and dont forget that all chemistry lab reports must be turned in before the end of the quarter in order to get credit for them, some other things hes just not into. 
In any case, girls take up most of the leadership positions and earn most of the top academic honors at his high school.</p>
<p>So, I wonder, will the students at college be those that he admires and wants to emulate? If so, will that make a difference in motivating him to work harder to achieve more?</p>
<p>PayFor - for those very reasons you stated, boys will do better with lower stats than girls during the college process. Girls are competing for those 50% slots.</p>
<p>In high school, a student could often do well if he just works hard and be organized. In college, especially at those top 20s, it takes both hardwork and raw talent. My daughter who was a top math student at her high school, with SATs to back it up, finds herself to be a B+ student in her math classes. Questions on her exams are not close to anything they have seen on their take home problem sets. That being said, the fact she goes to every office hour to seek extra help (a habit she got from high school), has often saved her butt. There were 2 occassions when her grades were bumped up. She has asked her professors to read her papers multiple times before they were due and received better grades because many revisions.</p>
<p>D1 always needs to be on top of her school study in college, unlike high school, if she doesn’t do well on one prelim, then she’ll have 2 more chances(at most) to bring up her grade. Her school also grades on a curve, it’s always about how well you do relative to other people. D1 is very motivated because she needs a certain GPA to even get interviews for finance internship.</p>
<p>This seems to be a fundamental difference between (most) men and (most) women. Women seek validation and cooperation; men strive to be self-sufficient. Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages. I hope it’s true that adcoms recognize and account for this difference in some cases. (My son is an extreme self-sufficiency masochist. It has taken years just to get him to acknowledge that seeking extra help from an instructor is an option. The next level is getting him to take advantage of that option.)</p>
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^^^^^ Will men ever learn to ask for directions?? My DH has relied on his $(%&*$) GPS which has taken us all over the friggin place, including an open cornfield and back roads way off the beaten path that took us way out of our way and late. </p>
<p>Sorry, rant over. :)</p>