Under 3.6 (GPA) and Applying Top 20 Parents Thread

<p>"what we’re talking about in this thread is how a student can position himself and sell himself to schools that won’t be that impressed by his academic stats. The question to ask, I think, is “What am I really good at? And how do I demonstrate that?”
Well summarized!</p>

<p>'If geography were not an issue at all, then HYPMS would be filled students from the Nassau County Long Island, Westchester County NY, Newton MA, the North Shore of Chicago and Fairfax County VA with 3.8+ GPA and 2300+ SAT who are one (or more) of the following: all conference athletes, all county orchestra players, all county theater arts types"
^^^ True! But I doubt those spots would be offered to students from other areas who were NOT as academically qualified, simply because they were from other regions! The colleges we are talking about have more than enough applicants with stellar statistics to fill 10X’s the number of openings actually available. Geographic location, BY ITSELF, is not a “significant” factor in making an admissions decision.</p>

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<p>Yet these schools manage to come up with nearly the same percent from states/regions every year. </p>

<p>As you intimated, Stanford’s new admissions director has a mandate to lower the number of admits from CA.</p>

<p>Diversity of all sorts is mandated in every admissions office these days. Representation from as many states as possible was three decades ago when I worked in admissions at Penn, but it’s gone crazy. With a kids from NY, NJ, CA, etc., they can expect the moon and get it. They often need to do a little bending to get the quota from South Dakota and New Mexico.</p>

<p>well, final admissions decisions at top tier colleges will always be an opaque “black box” that none from outside are allowed to peer into, and often seem to be made regardless of the factors colleges declare to be “important” or not. In the end, any discrepancies are always justified or glossed over with the “putting together a class” statement.</p>

<p>We live in a very underrepresented state. To encourage my son I tell him, “If you and another applicant are otherwise equal, they’ll pick you because so few students come from our state.” I believe and hope that this is true.</p>

<p>It’s a statistical certainty that the top schools would occasionally end up with students from only 48 or 49 states if geography weren’t a consideration. The fact that the top schools have all 50 states represented in every class indicates that they do consider geography at some point, even if it’s only to fill in the last few spots.</p>

<p>Take Dartmouth, for example: [Class</a> Profile](<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/generalinfo/profile.html]Class”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/generalinfo/profile.html). Fifteen states have either one or two students represented in the class of 2012. The odds are heavily against that happening, unless geography is considered in the admissions decision.</p>

<p>DS1 is working on the essays now. The common app asks that the applicant “write an essay (250 words minimum) on a topic of your choice or on one of the options listed below”. </p>

<p>Question: Does the applicant get penalized at all for picking the “topic of your choice”, rather than one of the listed topics?</p>

<p>Are you talking about the U of Chicago essay prompts? I don’t think there would be any "penalty’ for picking a topic of your choice, unless he was going to just write a generic “why I want to go to Chicago” type of essay. All of the Chicago prompts are very eclectic on purpose- the admissions officers want to get a peek into how original a thinker a student can be, and how well he can write. If he is going to pick his own topic I suggest it be about something he is really interested in. He should not be afraid to write a full page or 2 , if that is what it takes to do a well thought out essay.</p>

<p>sorry, I got you mixed up with MS!</p>

<p>DS1 told me it was for the Common Application essay, not the supplement.</p>

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<p>I’m constantly amazed when reading these boards at things kids say they were told by adcom. One recently said a Duke adcom had told him a C from his private school would be treated like a public school A. </p>

<p>Who knows what is really said and what the truth is about the boxes colleges check. They all say they have no quotas! But it’s apparent to me that the US News rankings have encouraged colleges to get as many kids applying as they possibly can.</p>

<p>mantori - I know Pomona, for one, only considers geographic region–not state–in admissions. I emailed the dean to ask, and his answer is backed up by the stats. Excluding the class of 2013, Pomona definitely had <=49 states represented, as there were 0 students from Delaware (which is only sort of an underrepresented state, being one of those East Coast anomalies). Of course, apparently only like 3 people apply every year, too.</p>

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No doubt it depends a little bit on the college, but I just heard the admissions officer from American (I think - if not that it was GW) saying that he’d rather you made up your own topic, because they get so sick of reading the same old essays.</p>

<p>As to the geography question, I don’t believe that geography plays no role, though I’m sure it’s minor in the grand scheme of things. However sometime last year (I’m having no luck finding it via google) the NYT printed a chart that showed the acceptance rate for various states at various colleges. I remember that being from Wyoming gave you a 100% acceptance rate at some colleges - of course it was one student applied, and one was a accepted.</p>

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<p>No. My Ds both selected “the topic of your choice.” Basically, they had essays that said the things that they wanted the adcoms to know about them. If the “topic of your choice” designation was available, they would select that. If it weren’t available, they would try to tweak their essay to fit within the selection of essay topics. If that wasn’t possible, they would have to write a new essay. They REALLY didn’t want to write a new essay from whole cloth.</p>

<p>Remember, the purpose of the essay–for the applicant and the adcom-- is to flesh out the applicant as a person beyond the dry statistics of GPA, test scores, transcripts, EC list, etc. I don’t think the adcoms care how you do it, whether through the CommonApp essay topics or a topic of your own.</p>

<p>^^ I remember that article. Delaware was 50% that year at one of the Claremonts, either Pomona or Scripps.</p>

<p>Haven’t read all posts, sorry, but I do agree with advice offered by Hunt and menloparkmom with regards to the very long odds of a 3.6 or lower GPA student gaining admittance to highly selective colleges. A large percentage of those they reject have higher GPAs, plus 2200+ SATs, plus great ECs, letters, etc. </p>

<p>3.8+ uw gpa, most rigorous hs classes taken, top 10%, 2200+ SAT may be the threshold that gets an unhooked candidate a serious look but I’m guessing based on the kids I’ve seen and their results that when weeding from this highly gifted and accomplished pool that the tips come into play–so special ECs, heartbreaking essays, even being a valedictorian from Delaware may (but not with a certainty) get a nod. </p>

<p>The 3.6 student with the best chance of winning the lotto in this crowd will have something extraordinary to offer the college. Read the websites of any desirable college carefully and find the one that truly fits your student. If the school is aimed at International Relations type kids, the 3.6er who speaks four languages fluently, spent years overseas, and has started an international charity <em>may</em> just get a second look. That’s how crazy the competition has become.</p>

<p>While breaking into the “majors” may seem possible for some, there is still the most important question (already asked here, but worth repeating)–would that top-ranked school be the sort of environment where your student would really thrive and succeed and feel great?</p>

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<p>This is the real question we should be asking ourselves, IMHO. Sure, our kids with a 3.6 may win the lotto and get into HYPMS (not likely but for the sake of discussion let’s say he or she does), then what? The kids at HYPMS are in a class by themselves. They have spent years perfecting their study skills, getting high grades, taking the highest level classes and doing extraordinary ECs. My son, while very smart, lacked the discipline to get the 4.75 GPA and preferred video games over learning the violin and entering national science competitions. Sure, he did well on his test scores and a 3.6 isn’t a shabby GPA but, honestly, I’m not sure he could hang with the HYPSM crowd without getting a major inferiority complex. He has several HYPSM bound kids in his class and he couldn’t keep up with these kids in HS, how could he in HYPSM?</p>

<p>The truth is he has less than a 10% chance of getting into his reaches (not HYPSM but still very high) so it will be a moot point anyway. I believe he should reach for his dreams and I’m willing to help him but honestly, he hasn’t done the work to get there and it will, in the long run, be a good life lesson when he doesn’t get in.</p>

<p>I totally agree that our chances are very slim, but is our pursuit here a lost cause?</p>

<p>While dropping him off to school this morning, I told DS1 that we are upbeat about turning in great EA apps, but the most likely scenario is that he’ll be rejected by all three EA schools and that he needs to be prepared to accept that. “I knew that already. I’m expecting rejections.” I was very proud of DS1 for being very realistic, and not think too much of himself.</p>

<p>Why are we still doing this? In the event that he gets into one of these schools, there will certainly be celebration and padding ourselves on the back for believing and hanging on to the end. In the event that we fail, I’d want him to know that it is still far better to fail trying than to simply give up and drop off. The failure, should it happen, is not the end of it. It is but one leg of a life-long marathon. Whatever the outcome, the lessons learned here will be valuable for the next leg of the race.</p>

<p>Of course, when the risk and return ratio is out of proportion or when questionable moral and ethics issues are involved, one should know when to give up and when to not even take on a task. In this case the risk is high, but the potential return is much higher.</p>

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<p>How to tell to the adcom that a kid would be still happy even if he is in the bottom ( assuming all top20 schools have the same concern) ?</p>

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Actually, as long as you have a sensible range of schools, the real risk is low: temporary disappointment. Your S already has prepared himself for that. I think there is another potential risk: wasting a lot of time and effort on a futile goal can divert you from more important things, but that’s not likely to be the case here.</p>

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<p>Not likely…unless it diverts you from finding that sub-T20 school that would have been a fabulous fit with merit aid and you wind up at a poorer-fitting “safety” that you didn’t put much thought into.</p>

<p>The one positive outcome that came out of my Son being deferred early by Stanford, was that he buckled down and polished the rest of his essays to perfection. It was a miserable Xmas vacation, as we, and his friends, all had assumed that he would be accepted at S, but in the end he was accepted at all the other colleges he applied to, and was awarded a full tuition scholarship at his “safety”, all of which was a happy shock after the initial disappointment.</p>