Under 3.6 (GPA) and Applying Top 20 Parents Thread

Parents Forum
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<p>Same reason we are doing it. The way I look at it, you definitely can’t win if you’re not even in the game, so why not put yourself out there and risk failure.</p>

<p>I do think that it is good for our son to see that there is a direct correlation between how hard you work and the reward. He started talking about MIT in 9th grade, so we took him up there for a visit. We sat him down with the GC, who told him what it would take to get into a HYPSM and yet he still was half-hearted about his school work. He is admittedly a very bright student but he lacks the self-discipline to put in the extra effort needed to get into a Ivy. </p>

<p>He has since set his goal a little lower (but still a pretty high reach) and if he gets in that is great. If not, then he has learned a very valuable life lesson.</p>

<p>My goal is to help him see that ‘extra-effort’ in the application process might pay off and that if you are going to do something, don’t do it half-way. I’m still not sure he will take my advice on the best way to approach getting into a Top 20 but that’s his decision. All I can do is give him the information I have. It’s up to him to decide whether to use it.</p>

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<p>Unless your son has faced real rejection before, and most 17 year olds have not, be ready for a reaction that may not be as casual as this distant consideration of rejection.</p>

<p>Most on this thread are heavily invested in the concept of the superiority of top colleges. Our family was too when my oldest was not accepted at MIT, a school he thought was the be all and end all. I came to understand that in spite of lots of conversations saying he understood the odds, he, like most applying, on some level really believed he’d get in.</p>

<p>I saw the same thing when DD applied a year later and I see it in my niece applying to enormous reaches now. Because these kids have not seen what we have over decades, deep down they seem to believe they can change systems and that adcom will see how special they are and deviate from the norms. Why would they be applying otherwise? And the fact that we are participating in this high stakes game with them suggests we also think the odds can be beaten here.</p>

<p>The odds are against every ivy applicant, but for the kids discussed on this thread, we are probably talking a lot of rejections. Menloparkmom’s son could get over Stanford pretty quickly when the acceptance letters from Dartmouth, etc. rolled in.</p>

<p>But what about the 3.6 kid applying to 5 T20 colleges who gets rejected by them all? It will be hard for these kids to take all of that rejection well. Many of them live in worlds where as they accept the news, their peers will be celebrating acceptance to these schools.</p>

<p>So just a heads up. We knew for kid 2 that the mantra had to be: too many qualified kids just don’t get in today, that school is great but a pipe dream for most, we love your matches and safeties, let’s talk about them.</p>

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<p>S2 watched his brilliant older brother get rejected by a bunch (4) of the top schools, so I think he’s well aware of the odds at his reaches. At the same time his reaches (like those of his brother) have been chosen for good reasons. He also has a safety he really likes, so I’m not overly concerned. Actually I’m more worried for some of his friends who he thinks are overreaching.</p>

<p>It’s not just the kids who don’t really think their kids will be rejected by those super-reaches. I knew that at best my oldest had odds of about 1 in 4 of being accepted at MIT, but still really thought he’d get in. In the end he had good choices which was really all that mattered.</p>

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<p>Those early action acceptances in the back pocket sure help smooth things over when the thin envelopes start showing up. I think having a having choice of more than one school come April 1 helps the kid bounce back.</p>

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<p>S1 already had Chicago EA, a full ride scholarship from a good school in a top 10 list for his field, and an acceptance from Berkeley.</p>

<p>Even so, HYP rejection was very hard to swallow even though he had a very good “cognitive understanding” that the odds were terribly against him given his EC profile (or, lack thereof). He did not express much - just wanted to be left alone so we did, rather than trying to intrude.</p>

<p>I only got a glimpse of his disappointment when he mentioned after a few weeks of amazing experience and achievement on a paid Wall Street internship he got through merit and personal hustling, not through family/friends connection, something to the effect that he now recovered a full measure of self confidence after the rejection. I did not realize until he said this how deeply he was disappointed. He indicated later that it was not because he would have fewer opportunities at Chicago as opposed to those in other schools or that his career prospect is materially changed. It was just the fact that he did not make it. Believe me, all throughout HS, he was not the Type A type fixated on grades, etc: he was ANYTHING BUT, that’s why I was surprised how hard he took it. </p>

<p>Most of the kids we are talking about on this thread have really not failed in anything that matters so far, and I have the feeling that they all take it pretty hard. I anticipated that S1 would be resoundingly rejected by HYP so I really pumped Chicago up while he was waiting for the RD decisions to soften the blow, even so, it hit him hard. </p>

<p>By the way, I did not know much about Chicago other than that it’s in Top 10, and its econ department is ranked #1. So I researched a lot on this school so that I could pump it up big time to make it into an ideal school for S1 in his eyes. Turns out, the more I learned about it, the more I realized that it’s a perfect school for him, and I fell in love with the school head over hills (marriage first, and loves later later, eh…) By now, he is all gong ho about Chicago. The fact that the executives at the firm where he interned have such high opinions of the school also helped. (good natured jokes about how XXX is going to that school where fun goes to die, and why they should show him some good time before that happens)</p>

<p>I think the important thing for us to do is to let them know that no matter what happens, they are NOT FAILING US. It’s enough that they have to deal with their own disappointment, they should not have to have the extra burden of dealing with the disappointment of the parents.</p>

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<p>The thing is most of these kids never have failed. They’ve gotten the grades, scores and awards. The idea of rejection or even disappointment is alien to them. Whether by design or osmosis they have come to the conclusion that “If I do A, B & C, then I will get the prize”. They’ve done everything asked of them and suddenly it’s not enough.</p>

<p>With son1 we talked about odds and probabilities. We discussed long shots and sure things; but at the end of the day odds apply to the entire population, acceptance letters are personal. Probabilities describe the range of outcomes, admissions letters are binary.</p>

<p>The old saying in Sales is, always hire ex-athletes, they know how to lose and then get right back up again. It’s a lesson worth remembering.</p>

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<p>Here is a question for the parents of this thread. Should junior provide an explanation of his GPA in the “Additional Information” section of the Common App? What do you think?</p>

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<p>What would he say?</p>

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<p>Pretty much what he will say if asked the same in his interviews.</p>

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<p>Only if it’s a great explanation that doesn’t include most given here on CC.</p>

<p>Here’s the thing I remember most from working in admission many moons ago, in a day where my ivy accepted about 50%. Excuses turn adcom off. With all the choice they have, why would they accept someone claiming they just didn’t get motivated by teachers/course work/life?</p>

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<p>In my DS’s case, we were stunned when his reaction upon being accepted into MIT for grad school 5 years later was to say he finally felt validated. We were speechless. He’d done so well during college and had great internships, we had no idea he felt this way.</p>

<p>At the beginning of this thread my thinking was it’s no problem for these kids to go for major reaches. As the thread has unfolded, my thinking has changed. I’m hearing parents supporting unrealistic candidates and holding onto the need for these few schools which has got to reinforce the child’s need. There are 34 pages of how do I get my kid into a school that he probably can’t get into. I’m not sure the outcome will be as good in April if the focus doesn’t shift soon.</p>

<p>If any of the kids are reading this thread, I think they will feel they are disappointing the parent if they don’t make it in to one of these schools.</p>

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<p>Most 3.6 kids who score above 1900 on the SAT could be quite successful at most of the top schools. A former Harvard president noted that a student with a 600 on the CR section of the SAT could be successful in the Harvard curriculum. The curriculum at many schools outside the top 10 is likely more challenging. I doubt there is an Ivy more demanding than Reed College, for example. Most of these schools, however, are not looking for kids who can be successful in college (that’s a given), but who will go on to be leaders and major contributors after college. Their’s is a job of sorting and selecting, not really of providing that life changing education. It’s more of a life channeling education. This is why the real competition on campus is not in the classroom, but in the EC’s, social clubs, etc. That is why the 3.6 kid, particularly if there is a large donation in the balance, who has that amazing accomplishment does have a shot. It is also why, from time-to-time, your “average” high performer gets a shot.</p>

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There are 34 pages of how do I get my kid into a school that he probably can’t get into.

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<p>I don’t disagree with the other points you made in your last post, but the line I’ve quoted here is off-base. I’m not trying to *get *my kid into any school. It’s his job to get into whatever school he wants to go to, and several on his list happen to be top-twenty. My job is to help him realize his dreams if possible.</p>

<p>Of course, my job is also to provide him with realistic alternatives, which is why he is applying to State U as well. I gave him a list of colleges that I know he will get into, and that we can pay for or that are likely to be free, and told him that he has to apply to at least one of them. He picked State U. The rest were picked by him. If his list consisted entirely of fourth-tier public schools, but I knew that he really, genuinely liked them, that would be fine, too. He aims high, and I don’t feel it’s my place to discourage that.</p>

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<p>Actually, what I worry about more than the disappointment of being rejected is the disappointment of being accepted and then finding that he doesn’t enjoy being around the kind of people who get accepted to top-twenty schools. Clearly, with a 3.6 GPA, he is not driven the same way that a perfect student is. (Driven, yes, just not in the same way.) Might he find that the best fit is actually a school where most of the other students are 3.6-GPA-types? I have begun discussing this with him.</p>

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<p>Agreed. It may take a painful experience to really learn something and change behavior.</p>

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<p>Excellent point here. Despite “cognitive understanding” of the odds, we do need to be reminded that it is still a “distant consideration of rejection”, and be prepared to mitigate the likely “surprised how hard he took it”. I’m in agreement that one way to prepare for this is to “pump up” the matches and the schools that send in the thick envelopes. Thanks for the advice.</p>

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<p>I disagree, at least in my DS1’s case. He’s received plenty of disappointment in the various competitions. Failed to win 1st place at the state science fair that he never thought he would not win after winning 1st place the year before (he took it very hard). Missed all-state orchestra by 0.5 point. Lost a crucial game in which he was completely winning in the invitational state high school chess championship. Lost the state varsity debate championship in the playoff round… </p>

<p>So while he hasn’t competed for a prize as big as a T20, he has his share of disappointment and failure on things that he had prepared for years. He learned very well that while hard work usually pays off at the end, there is still no guarantee. The emphasis is not on winning it all, but on trying. In trying, one expands and improves oneself.</p>

<p>Also, let’s not forget where we are - our kids don’t have the “grades”.</p>

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<p>Yes. This is a very important point. We need to tell them repeatedly that rejections do not make them disappointment to their parents.</p>

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<p>I thought about this often. I’m not too worried about this for at least two reasons. DS1 has been competing at very high level in his ECs for a very long time and he gets to focus on a discipline he loves in college, and there will be plenty of “hooked” students with similar or lower GPAs that he won’t feel he’s alone and completely out of place. </p>

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<p>He might, but he also might find the environment less stimulating and less challenging. The fear is that he might only rise to the level (or even a little under!) of his peers, when he is fully capable of doing much more. Only the parents and their students would know. This said, given the odds, it is very likely our kids will be matriculating to schools where their peers have similar or slightly higher GPAs as theirs.</p>

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<p>Writing in an “excuse” for a 3.6 GPA sounds obnoxious to me. I’d save “excuses” for some truly out of the norm situation – serious medical illness, death of a parent.</p>

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<p>I agree with Paperchaser’s point. I don’t think these kids would have any problem at a top school and I think anyone who has been to one will agree. There are lots of athletes and wealthy legacies there with these GPAs and without the scores as well as those that got there academically.</p>

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While I mostly agree with this, I do think there are a few caveats–mainly that it depends on the major.</p>

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<p>The conventional wisdom at S2’s school is that “college is easier.” Coming out of this particular IB program, I have to agree. I have no doubt he’d do well at an Ivy. He just didn’t care for the ones he visited. </p>

<p>My feeling is that one has to look at the GPA in the context of the school, and the places on S’s list know his program well.</p>

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<p>RE: mantori.suzuki 513. </p>

<p>I completely agree that some kids do not have the personality to succeed at HYP, even if they have the brains to do so. It is a long road to accepting that an intellectually gifted kid may not have the discipline or drive to do well enough in high school to get a GPA that matches his or her NMF SAT scores or 5s on the AP tests. For some students, college may awaken that drive and the student may well turn out to be a top student. Many, however, still are not (and may never be) that driven. I know some incredibly smart folks who have chosen a career path that may not match their ability. </p>

<p>I found it difficult to find a school that “matched” my son’s high scores, less than stellar GPA (not terrible, but not in top 10%). He is happy at his top 30s mid-sized U. He hasn’t exactly kicked it up in a big way, but I don’t think he would have even at a HYP. He certainly has the ability to comprehend the material at any Univ in the country, just not the motivation.</p>

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<p>S1 loves his academically intense top tier college. He finds that he is at no disadvantage to those who had higher GPAs in high school. I don’t think it is possible to predict what will happen to individuals in particular situations and knowing that it is a long shot (as it was in S1’s case), if the kid wants to apply, why not?</p>