Under 3.6 (GPA) and Applying Top 20 Parents Thread

<p>I have been enjoying this thread for a while, as my son sounds like several of your kids. He could be pizzagirl’s son’s twin (except that, like pizzagirl, my son is already a twin, too!). What strikes me about this thread, though, is this arbitrary focus on a 3.6 GPA. It depends on the secondary school the kids are coming from! In our town, we have plenty of students who get into top 20 LACs and universities with 3.6 UW and below. For the absolutely most selective colleges in the country, you do have to either be a tippy -top-performing academic or a superstar in something else (and frankly, the number of kids who are in the upper-right quadrant of the Naviance grid and still get rejected from many outstanding schools is frightening.) When i was discussing my son’s situation with a friend from college, she reminded me that even if he had done everything right in terms of his transcript, that still wouldn’t have guaranteed his getting in.</p>

<p>Naviance does make for some good gossip, because sometimes it’s so clear to see what schools picked kids just for athletics, and sometimes you can even tell exactly who the kid is.</p>

<p>According to William R. Fitzsimmons, the dean of admissions and financial aid at Harvard College, curriculum-based tests such as the AP, IB, and SAT subject tests have the greatest predictive power in college GPA at Harvard and at other more selective colleges. Next in line are high school grades, followed by SAT and ACT.</p>

<p>*Standardized tests are generally more predictive of academic success at selective colleges than at others, …</p>

<p>… our studies consistently demonstrate that standardized tests are helpful in predicting Harvard grades. Of course many other factors are important too, including high school grades, teacher and counselor recommendations, and intangible personal qualities that are reflected throughout the application.
We have found that the best predictors at Harvard are Advanced Placement tests and International Baccalaureate Exams, closely followed by the College Board subject tests. High school grades are next in predictive power, followed by the SAT and ACT. The writing tests of the SAT and ACT have predictive power similar to the subject tests.*</p>

<p>This might give some hope for students here whose relatively low GPAs do not match their high standardized test scores. And this is interesting:</p>

<p>Standardized tests are most useful to us in the decision-making process when they are extremely high or low—and even then many other factors come into play.</p>

<p>I hear anecdotes about how very high test scores from applicants with GPAs less than 4.0 turn out to be the final determining factor in gaining admission. It doesn’t hurt that almost all colleges, and even departments within colleges, like to tout their high average test scores.</p>

<p>[Guidance</a> Office: Answers From Harvard’s Dean, Part 2 - The Choice Blog - NYTimes.com](<a href=“Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 2 - The New York Times”>Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 2 - The New York Times)</p>

<p>Thanks, PayFor. The recent tone of this thread has been, “You’re getting your hopes up for nothing.” While we all want our kids to be realistic, we want them to have the very best as well. The comments you quoted seem to support our cautious optimism.</p>

<p>Michele Hernandez is posting here this AM. I’ve asked her to post on this thread. I’ve spent much of the weekend talking to my sister about these issues and we’re now very torn as to how to best steer her daughter given all of the issues that have come up here. Hope she adds her opinion.</p>

<p>mantori-suzuki wrote

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<p>here on cc, this subject has been debated to Nth degree. is the admission to a T20 school the very best for your child? shouldn’t a place your child likes the most, fits in well, etc the best for youe child? </p>

<p>there has not been any data of any kind to support that going to a top ranked school will be best for a student. it is, on the other hand, all depends on the student him or herself to make the best for themself. </p>

<p>I would support the idea if the T20 school has the major or program your child like the most. just going to a school for its name is, imho, not the very best for your child. especially if you have to pull and/or push the child to do things they don’t want to.</p>

<p>I have been asked to post on this thread (although the thread covers a LOT of ground) – on the issue of scores first, good scores do not guarantee you’ll get into a top 20 or so school, but bad scores guarantee you won’t. On the issue of grades, I can’t answer the “GPA of 3.6” question as there are SO MANY other factors (which is why there IS hope for some kids for sure in this boat. How hard is the grading at your school? Where does that 3.6 put you relative to others? how hard are the courses you are taking? What is the grade trend? Did you have a bad 9th grade year and then go up from there, or did you have a junior year grade drop (which would be fatal) - so there is always a LOT more to the story - how are your teacher recs? How do you show love of learning? How have you gone above and beyond… So no, a 3.6 by itself won’t knock you out of top schools, but there are a zillion other factors that get weighed in as well. Michele H.</p>

<p>I’m going to post some parts of what Fitzsimmon’s wrote on Sept 11 in the NYT Choice blog about what Harvard looks for OVERALL in an applicant [ it is not going to make the 3.6 parents hoping their kids have a “shot” at Harvard happy]
He begins by saying this:</p>

<p>“Our goal in admissions is to attract the best students to the college”</p>

<p>“While we value objective criteria, we apply a more expansive view of excellence. Test scores and grades offer some indication of students’ academic promise and achievement. But we also scrutinize applications for extracurricular distinction and personal qualities.”</p>

<p>“Students’ intellectual imagination, strength of character, and their ability to exercise good judgment — these are critical factors in the admissions process, and they are revealed not by test scores but by students’ activities outside the classroom, the testimony of teachers and guidance counselors, and by alumni/ae and staff interview reports.”</p>

<p>“With these aspects — academic excellence, extracurricular distinction, and personal qualities — in mind, we read with care all the components of each application.” </p>

<p>“While there are students at Harvard who might present unusual excellence in a single academic or extracurricular area, most admitted students are unusually strong across the board and are by any definition well-rounded. The energy, commitment, and dedication it takes to achieve various kinds and degrees of excellence serve students well during their college years and throughout their lives.”</p>

<p><a href=“Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 1 - The New York Times”>Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 1 - The New York Times;

<p>We’ll see whether ds is sunk with his slight drop in junior year. He was taking six AP classes so, to me, it’s understandable. His only B came in BC Cal, but he got a 5 on the AP test and the AB subscore. Can’t wait to see how it all plays out.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, my hook would have been Georgia, non-Atlanta. ;)</p>

<p>ClassicsGeek, Interesting on the junior year grade drop. A adcomm at one of S2’s schools told him they knew that at S’s HS, many students’ grades dropped first semester junior year, but then they look to see how the student recovers. I was impressed at the level of data analysis.</p>

<p>A couple of questions for you: how, in your experience, do students in selective admit programs fare in college admissions? Do college really “get” that a school may have 25% of its class comprised of the top 1-2% of the system? Do they care that a student took the academic risk of choosing a program like that, knowing it would likely mean a hit to the GPA? I look at my S’s objective scores and AP/NM awards and know that if he were at the local HS in another school system or one of the 48 other states where his PSAT would make him NMSF, he’d be an extremely strong candidate for wherever he wants to attend. Where we live, it’s much harder to stand out in an extraordinarily crowded field.</p>

<p>hmom, I agree with your assessment. For some of these kids, there are maturity issues and perhaps more time being in a nurturing environment would help. The other critical element is finding the right major. Motivation and lack of discipline has all been tied up with interest in a subject to the point where even serious negative consequences didn’t force a change in behavior.</p>

<p>mantori, I wasn’t saying anything in jest. I do mean it’s ironic that the kids who would benefit the most from academic assistance at the college level aren’t going to be admitted to the places most likely to offer it. Or maybe I misunderstood what you’re saying.</p>

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<p>And yet you felt compelled to open the debate yet again.</p>

<p>My kid wants to apply to top-20 schools. I’m going to help him. End of story.</p>

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<p>No, I think we’re on the same page. I just wasn’t sure if the tone of your post was sincere or sarcastic, but now you’ve cleared it up.</p>

<p><a href=“and%20frankly,%20the%20number%20of%20kids%20who%20are%20in%20the%20upper-right%20quadrant%20of%20the%20Naviance%20grid%20and%20still%20get%20rejected%20from%20many%20outstanding%20schools%20is%20frightening.”>quote</a>

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Actually I don’t find it that frightening, but the contrast in schools can be quite enlightening. Stanford took no one from our top quadrant (but did accept athletes and URMs with much lower stats), Harvard took about half (!) of the top quadrant. Georgetown by contrast only took about a fifth.</p>

<p>M.s. wrote in post #4

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<p>Parent should encourage their childen to do the best and pursuit their passion for them to be the best they could. “told” them to do something just for boosting their college application? I don’t know. </p>

<p>Also, M.S., had you truely want the best for your son and gave him all the help you could, could you offer your reason that his GPA is @ 3.5 ~ 3.6? He sounds like a very smart student with “very high” test scores. </p>

<p>BTW, I was not trying to open that debate again because I know the answer.</p>

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<p>Three reasons, in no particular order: (1) He has ADD but has chosen to be unmedicated since 8th grade, so his ability to concentrate is diminished. (2) He has a low tolerance for boredom, so his lowest grades have been in easy classes in 9th and 10th grade. (3) He currently attends a math-and-science magnet school where kids work hard for B’s. His average at this school, which he entered as a Junior, is 3.54, which puts him in the top 15% or so.</p>

<p>Dad II, your spelling and punctuation tell me that perhaps you are not a native speaker of English, so perhaps you don’t understand how the tone of your writing comes across. You seem to be challenging some of what I’ve said about my attitude toward my son’s education. If that’s not your intent, please make that clear. I DO want the best for my son, I DO help him, and I DO want him to attend a college where he will be happy. If you are questioning any of those things, then we have nothing further to discuss.</p>

<p>Naviance-related question - our school just got it, and so I’m viewing it as a guest.</p>

<p>Many of the schools on our kids’ potential list – no one from our school has ever applied to. *I don’t think they’re so out of the ordinary – but apparently out here in the land of why-would-you-ever-venture-out-of-Illinois, they are. No one’s applied to Bates or Colby or Colgate. No one’s applied to Brandeis (this is not a Jewish area and I’m sure it’s on no one’s radar screen). No one’s applied to Whitman. Etc.</p>

<p>Is there a way I could find a school that has a similar profile to ours (upper middle class suburban) and see their Naviance? I could get Naviance passwords for the most top-tier public schools in the Chicago area (such as New Trier) from friends but I don’t think that’s the comparison I want. I want a tier down, if that makes sense. Suggestions / thoughts?</p>

<p>^^^ This isn’t Naviance, but it’s the 2009 acceptance stats from one of our local high schools. Upper middle class / upper class LA suburb. School is highly rated, #84 I think.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.pvpusd.k12.ca.us/penhi/collegeacceptance/collegeacceptance09.pdf[/url]”>http://www.pvpusd.k12.ca.us/penhi/collegeacceptance/collegeacceptance09.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I posted last years in the student section, and you could sort that by college. Unfortunately, in this version I don’t think you can sort by college. But you could look for a student with similar stats to your kid and get an idea.</p>

<p>M.S. I form my opinion based on what I read. You are entitled to form yours anyway you want.</p>

<p>We all do love our children and want the best for them. In my opinion, you are putting a a huge pressure on your son to get into a T20 school. Because you are equalling attending of a T20 to being “the best”. </p>

<p>Personally, I regret many things I did when I “want the very best for my children”. I am not trying to challenge you in any way. It is your personal choice as what to do in your son’s college application process. Best of luck to you and your son.</p>

<p>Thank you. I may have given the wrong impression here somehow, but my son is choosing where to apply to college. We have a nice public university in our state, and I would be happy for my son to go there. I believe the pressure on him comes from himself, but I will continue to be careful not to make him feel that he has to achieve something better for me. I’ll be happy if he is happy.</p>

<p>Dad II, it is nice to see that you have learned from your D’s experience, and best of luck to your son through this process.</p>