<p>LA and MV are not unheard of these days, but in the real HS world, most kids don’t have that opportunity.</p>
<p>Let’s also recognize that even a course labeled AP Calc may vary widely in scope and sequence.</p>
<p>Another thing to remember: the T 20 on the rankings originating in the USA does not always reflect the similar order in the “international top colleges/universities” list. For instance, the latest international ranking shows Harvard, Yale, Caltech, Chicago, MIT and Columbia within global top 10 in that order among American institutions. If you pick the first 20 American institutions on this global list, you add to above UPenn, Princeton, Duke, JHU, Cornell, Stanford, Michigan, CMU, Brown, UCLA, Northwestern, Berkeley, NYU, and Boston University. </p>
<p>Note that some of these “top 20 American Universities” are NOT in the T20 USNWR (most notably, Boston University).</p>
<p>Note that the USNWR and various other American ranking agencies use selection criteria that really do not measure the educational quality, renown, and prestige of the degree directly. Rather, a good portion of the ranking deals with the “vanity factor” such as the “perception of selectivity and exclusive club-ness” such as the acceptance rate and yield. The international rankings couldn’t care less about these “local perception” issues.</p>
<p>The reason why the international perception is a meaningful factor is simple: it’s a small world, and our kids will live an a far more globalized planet. In many emerging economic power regions, well known and respected American educational institutions bestow upon the graduates almost immediate seal of approval in the minds of the companies, people, and social institutions. It instantly legitimizes your standing on a global scale, and opens the doors. I worked for several years in a global behemoth of a company with a HQ in Asia, and they have enormous respect for the institutions mentioned above. However, practically no one heard of Washington U in ST., Amherst, Rice, Reed, Emory, Vandy and Nortre Dame though they are within T 20+ or so in USA. </p>
<p>So, if your kid’s “currency” is little short to “buy” one of the USNWR T 20 schools which are also within T 20 American schools on an international setting, you may get a “cheap bargain” by going after the T20 American Universities on the global ranking scheme. Remember: by 2040, they say China will become the second largest economy in the world, almost on par with USA, and the pacific rim countries will far surpass Europe in terms of the importance and the role they play in the global stage (well, it sort of almost surpassed Europe already).</p>
<p>Think big. Think global. In the end, our kids’ partners, competitors, employers, and enemies will come from very different places than ours do, who are mostly homegrown in USA.</p>
<p>Just food for thought…</p>
<p>P.S. another interesting anomaly: I have dealt with a lot of international colleagues. They all know about Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan as top American public universities. I have yet to meet one who knew about UVA, even though within USA, UVA is generally considered the second best public institutions after Berkeley. For whatever reason, UVA is seriously lacking in international currency. At least, that’s my experience, and the international ranking list I have seen seem to confirm that.</p>
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<p>menloparkmom - I wasn’t implying that AP’s are not important, they are. They are the hardest classes high schools offer by themselves. Also, as mantori pointed out, if the effort was based on independent study, then it is very impressive. </p>
<p>However, I do not believe that it rises to the level of significant national level achievement to the eyes of tippy-tops. My quote Dinmor used was given in the context of significant EC’s. AP’s are not EC.</p>
<p>D1 had an opportunity to go to Cornell or Duke. Duke was ranked higher. She ended up going to Cornell because my mother said, “Duke? Who’s ever heard of Duke? She is really smart no matter where she goes, but tell her to go to Cornell.”(my mother, a 75 year old Asian lady)
Of course it may had to do with my WASPy husband’s comment, “Why would you go to a southern school?” I have to admit that Duke was my “why not” application I asked my daughter to submit, never visited.</p>
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<p>I agree with the above. I’d also put Duke as questionable, even the mighty CalTech needs some selling. Cal Berkeley is BIG in international arena. Of course, international folks who wield real power know the difference, but the knowledge does not necessarily extend to middle management and below.</p>
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<p>My personal experience is different. Elite international business community, if anything, seems more fixated on “brand name” American institutions than than their middlings or their Americans counterparts. the thinking goes like: our own or, if we must “import”, the brand name “luxury goods only”. In the company I worked for, it came to a point where big ticket American consulting firms (the usual suspects, if you know what I mean) make sure they select among their junior worker bees those with the “recognized brand name American educational degrees” to be part of the consulting projects reporting to the senior executives in my firm because otherwise the paying executives feel like they are not getting the very best service from these firms. </p>
<p>Outside USA, the international elites are FAR MORE fixated on brand names that are well recognized everywhere than their counterparts here in USA.</p>
<p>Going back to the original theme, well known global institutions that are “discounted” in USA may be a real good bargain that will yield a lot of ROI down the road, AND (this is the most important part of this thread), some of them may be doeable for the kids we are talking about in this thread.</p>
<p>HKG has the annual Ivy Ball, there is only one way to get invited.</p>
<p>I think the international lists tend to overemphasize science and math - all fine and dandy if that’s your field, but less helpful if it’s not.</p>
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<p>I don’t know where this is coming from. Most of the institutions mentioned above also have strong social science departments and other liberal arts fields other than math & science.</p>
<p>If you mean that most of these institutions have strong research tradition, that is true. No elite LAC is included in the international elite list. Undergraduate colleges focusing on “teaching undergraduates” and lacking in “power hose research wing” tend to be rather obscure in the international scene. No surprise here.</p>
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<p>My husband is a partner at one of the usual suspects. It would be hard to find someone who didn’t go to an ivy or peer there. And hence the reason for this thread and many others. These schools, for better or worse, do provide access to places others don’t.</p>
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<p>Agreed. the nuance, though, is that if you think more globally and strategically, you could get an international version of T20 American institutions at a “discount” from the original USA based ranking T20. For instance, Michican, Univ of Illinois -Urbana Champaign, NYU and Boston University (outside of T20) are easier to get in than the like of Vandy and Notre Dame (within T20), but in the end, may prove to be a much better door opener on a global scale.</p>
<p>In short, you get a “discounted bargain”. </p>
<p>(by the way, for whatever reason, Boston University is relatively well known in the international scene, even though it does not have a great deal of sex appeal domestically).</p>
<p>Excellent point, and it’s an increasingly global proposition in elite businesses. DH attended Berkeley undergrad, which is much better recognize than 6 out of 8 ivies abroad.</p>
<p>I have also thought a lot about international recognition of US universities and the implications for my children. It is important to recognize that our kids will be competing globally. However, my own thought is that they will almost certainly need graduate degrees and that is the time to make sure the university has some international recognition. So in my case, I would hope my child chooses the highest quality + best fit institution she can get into and aims for a grad school with international prestige. With regards to China, I think the number of universities considered prestigious is likely to expand and include the ones high in the US domestic rankings. There are so many Chinese who received Phds here and are raising their children in the US and they spread the work back home on what are considered good universities. (I am not sure when this will extend to the LACs - they do not seem to attractive to the Chinese families I know.)</p>
<p>The flip side of hyeonjlee’s idea is why not investigate international colleges for our kids? They would of course be “Internationals”, so that would impact finaid somewhat, but in some cases the costs of attending are substantially lower than similar schools in the US, (think in-state flagshipU). They also wouldn’t necessarily have to travel all that much farther. The Universities of Toronto and British Columbia are just over the border, they typically score very well on International University Surveys and a cursory review of their stats profile show them to be attractive for “3.6-types”. I think that they could be viable options especially for those students looking to get involved in international business and consulting careers.</p>
<p>As far as China taking over as the world leading economy by 2040, my doctor and the actuaries at the life insurance company tell me I personally don’t need to spend too much time worrying about that.;)</p>
<p>Great idea about the Canadian Universities. I think you could add McGill to the list. I do not remember the specifics, but I believe it is a lot easier to get into than one would guess, given its strong reputation.</p>
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<p>That reminds me of my favorite little joke. Tell someone, “My doctor said I’m going to die.” Wait for them to react with horror or sympathy or whatever, then add, “Yup, he said I’ve got fifty, maybe sixty years, tops.”</p>
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<p>Wow. This never crossed my mind but makes perfect sense.</p>
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<p>I see your point and I don’t disagree, but I see no reason to “play the brand game name” with people who aren’t actually knowledgeable about the places in question. That seems not all that different from choosing (say) Dartmouth over Claremont McKenna because the drycleaner has heard of Dartmouth. Or worrying that the drycleaner confuses Penn and Penn State. </p>
<p>To me, this approach is like saying, “I’m just going to buy a Louis Vuitton handbag, even though it may not be the best handbag for me, because when I wear it, it impresses other people.” And I find that attitude the antithesis of “elite.”</p>
<p>I too am familiar with the big name usual suspect consulting firms, and I don’t disagree they select among their junior worker bees those with the “recognized brand names” to be parts of consulting projects, but by the same token – they’re still just all junior worker bees, which is a horrible lifestyle (having BTDT), and the whole point is that as a consultant, the young hot shot Harvard grad is being trotted out to <em>impress</em> the client, who may be the state flagship or non-elite u grad who actually built the company and made all the money in the first place.</p>
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<p>I think this is already happening. They use US News there too!</p>
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<p>This I don’t agree with simply because grads of these schools only have a presence in elite business jobs in Canada, which is tiny population wise and no business powerhouse. Might be a better option with some EU schools as given the movement between European countries now, some are on the rise. I think the up and coming schools will be the best strategy.</p>
<p>International business and consulting isn’t just the province of the traditional consulting powerhouses, though. I continue to find the focus on just a few firms and just a few careers very disheartening in general.</p>