<p>I have no dog in this fight. But I really hope that posters will come back in April and share their kids’ results with this discussion. It will be interesting to see what happens. Personally, I am rooting for the blind chickens…</p>
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<p>I’m glad we are back on track ;). </p>
<p>From the standpoint of the adcoms, this is step 1. All our efforts will be condensed to an application folder for each school. It may seems that we’ve been doing this for months or years, but it all comes down to a few sheets of paper. So how do we get the readers to go beyond page 1 if there are no checkmarks on the special status boxes? Here are some of my thoughts after being active on CC for more than a month. I bin the T20’s into three categories for “step 1”.</p>
<p>Category A: For a few tippy tops, I’m afraid no amount of “working the app” will help. IMHO, Yale, Princeton and Stanford and maybe couple more Ivies fall into this category. My guess is that for these schools, a first /second place Intel/Siemens award or a gold/silver medal in International Olympiad may cause their readers to linger on for more if the test scores are also at 90% of its data set.</p>
<p>Category B: For the other halve of the Ivies, MIT, CalTech, Duke and Chicago, readers will quickly look for the checkmark on the “most demanding” box and high test scores and - this is the important part - a passion with clear talent demonstrated through extraordinary work/accomplishment. Before moving the app to the next stage, they may also want to confirm the student has genuine leadership skills and community involvement.</p>
<p>Category C: For the rest of the T20’s, their readers will want to see the “most demanding” box is checked and that your test scores are in upper third of their data sets, and there are some interesting EC’s, before allowing the app to move on.</p>
<p>For Category B & C, make sure the apps are organized in ways that help to convince the adcoms there is enough evidence of the aforementioned to move on.</p>
<p>Congratulations, your reader has turned to page 2! Now, step 2 is another story…essays…recommendations…EC’s…</p>
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<p>I too am rooting for them. Frankly, sometimes I read this thread and I think “3.6?! in all AP classes? That seems like a good GPA to me.”</p>
<p>But anyway, I hope people will come back and honestly report their kids results. This will probably be of more help to future classes than all of this prognostication.</p>
<p>Paperchasepop, in all honesty, I don’t see how you concluded that from reading CC. First, there truly is not much difference in how any of the T20 approach things as can be gleaned by a read of their common data sets.</p>
<p>IMO, Essay, Essay, Essay. Phenomenal essays is what, at this point, would give me pause as an adcom and make me take a harder look. When I worked as an adcom this is how a few snuck in who otherwise would not have. Recs too, but those you have little control of.</p>
<p>The essay and application presentation is what you can control now. As I said about 80 pages back, I’ve seen this make the difference.</p>
<p>hmom5, I didn’t mean to imply my conclusion came from just CC. Being active on CC triggered me to look at the process more seriously.</p>
<p>My last post was only addressing what it takes to move pass the first page of your app. I was responding to boysx3. Of course essay is important, but the question was how do we convince the adcoms to read the essay before they toss our apps to the reject pile ;).</p>
<p>Btw, I also think a few schools, e.g. Cornell, could be in either B or C.</p>
<p>I’ve read occasionally on this thread that if one of the 3.6/high SAT kids gets into a Top 20 school, they might be overwhelmed by the workload, and hence would be happier at lower-ranked schools. Does anyone have anything to back that up? </p>
<p>I can see if for a few schools known for being especially difficult - MIT, U. Chicago, etc. But for the rest of the Top 20 (40)?</p>
<p>Would kids with 3.6s in all honors/AP classes from very good schools be better off than hooked students (URM, athletes) with lower test scores and less rigorous programs?</p>
<p>Paperchaser, what I’m saying is that I think it’s a myth that one T20 schools cares about GPA less than another. The CDSs really don’t show me an appreciable difference. That Penn, for example, has a higher number in the top 10% than others IMO is due to factors such as more full pay prep school kids rather than that they are more concerned with rank.</p>
<p>Honestly, in your position, and I’m part of my niece’s team right now, I think you’ve learned all you can learn. Now it’s time to preside over the application (or pay an expert to), going through draft after draft until it’s truly outstanding. Give the adcom a reason to really, really want your kid on their campus. Truly break away from the norms and give them an application they don’t want to put down.</p>
<p>Sacchi, as you point out a large percentage of the class at these schools are hooked and have lower stats ability than the kids we’re talking about here. Other than at the tech schools and math driven programs such as Wharton’s, these kids would do fine at any top 20 as would may kids with much lower stats.</p>
<p>hmom5, CDS is not useful in telling any differences among the tippy tops. Naviance, otoh, tells a lot more relevant story, especially if you know something the the kids making up the dots.</p>
<p>Naviance isn’t as straight forward as it seems. As we studied this with three different high schools, little by little we got explanations for the anomalies. The boy who no one knew was half black, the big donor relatives, the quiet legacy…</p>
<p>Well, ymmv. Reading the Naviance with the GC would be a good exercise, as s/he may be able explain the outliers on the spot. Btw, how many years does your Naviance cover? Naviance would not be much help if it doesn’t have enough data points.</p>
<p>I don’t know what is there to discuss about.</p>
<p>Will a T20 school take a student with a 3.6 unweighted GPA - yes
How much is the chance for an unhooked student with a 3.6 GPA get into a T20 - very slim.
Should such a student apply to T20 school? 100% Absolutely. If you don’t apply, you will never get in. OTOH, be well prepared for rejections.</p>
<p>The take away lesson here is for the parents who have younger kids. Please help your child with their school work to get good grades. Wait until the senior year is too late.</p>
<p>Most of the schools will give out a first period (9 weeks) grades. If the score is on the low side, go to the teacher and/or GC to find out why? Work with them and your child to bring the grade up.</p>
<p>So the real questions–are your kids going to take bold risks with the application? Are you addressing the GPA/rank? </p>
<p>My niece went bold. The counselor she worked with basically opined she had everything to gain and nothing to lose as her chances at the reaches were minimal without going outside the box. She ended up with very different applications for the reaches than for the others.</p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
<p>No and No to your first two questions.</p>
<p>I think anything that would make her app more appealing and different is worth a try. I remember reading up on what to avoid when taking on this strategy, but I don’t remember from where. You might want to google it and go through the checklist.</p>
<p>Did her counselor show her examples of successful apps with similar shock factor?</p>
<p>My parent letter to the GC pointed out that son had had a 504 plan that he dropped and wasn’t getting any accommodations in high school. I suggested that it partially explained his issues with Latin. I don’t know whether or not she’ll address it, but I hope she does. If you eliminate his Latin grades he’s actually an excellent student.</p>
<p>My son is clearly not in athlete/URM outlier territory, it’s just that most kids at his high school with SATs as high as his have somewhat higher grades - there aren’t very many data points for his grades. Our Naviance covers back to 2004 I believe, but if you look up 2400 SAT scores you get an automatic filter for 2007 the year the Writing test was introduced.</p>
<p>My nephew probably got into his first choice school pretty much on the basis of his essay alone. Not near the top twenty of schools by any means, but a reach for him.</p>
<p>He invented a board game, and he went around the country to several game conventions (I didnt even know such things existed) trying to hawk his game. He didnt get any takers, but he wrote about the experience and it was an extremely entertaining, insightful, and bittersweet essay. I always thought the kid was sort of weird, so I didnt know he had this type of essay in him.</p>
<p>mathmom, your explanation would have to be very pinpointed to address just Latin. In other words, the explanation should not make the GC/adcom ask why it didn’t affect his other grades.</p>
<p>It seems the writing section of the SAT doesn’t have the same weight as the other two. I’d focus on just the cr and math which would correlate with the old SAT scores on your Naviance.</p>
<p>bovertine - thanks for sharing your nephew’s story. It was indeed an awesome experience that demonstrated his pursuit of passion.</p>
<p>Paperchaser, I wouldn’t say the essays have a shock factor, they are just take a bold tone.</p>
<p>I think the idea is that these kids need something that truly makes the adcom stop and think about them in terms apart from just the numbers. Maybe intrigue is the word.</p>
<p>Even though my son has ADD and hasn’t been medicated during most of high school, it never occurred to me that he also had a 504 plan that he has not used in high school, i.e., no accommodations. Granted, it was his choice not to use the medication or the 504 plan, but since it does explain a bit, I wonder how it could be noted somehow on his college apps. I guess a note to his GC is in order. Thanks to mathmom for bringing it up.</p>
<p>I hope it’s okay to post general updates in this thread.</p>
<p>I’ve mentioned that my son has good grades overall (3.5 to 3.6 UW GPA), but that he’s a slow starter who scrambles at the end of the semester to catch up. The first quarter ends this week, and he’s true to form. Over the weekend his microbiology teacher posted a flurry of lab grades, which brought my son up from a 60 (lowest possible D) to 78 (high C).</p>
<p>Also, his English teacher told him last week that he expects to give him a high C for the quarter once all the grades are entered for papers turned in recently. (His English grade is currently an F, which is for just one paper, which he turned in a week late.)</p>
<p>That would give him three A’s, two B’s, and two C’s for the quarter. If his performance in the second quarter is typical, then he’ll end up with three A’s and four B’s at worst for the semester. (Only semester grades appear on the transcript.)</p>
<p>I continue to plant the seeds in his mind that a top university may not be for him at this point in his life, since he obviously hasn’t learned some of the basic skills required to perform at the highest level. He seems to be getting the message on some level, because he has been working on applications to colleges with rolling admissions rather than EA applications at more prestigious schools. In fact, I’m now thinking that EA is not the way to go, since his current struggles could lead to tepid recommendations. Finishing the semester strong should result in more enthusiasm in his recommendations.</p>
<p>He also showed me his National Merit essay, which was a nice little riff on the importance of trying new things, even if you don’t see anything new things around you to try. I hope his college essays are as good.</p>
<p>Mantori – thanks for the update.</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking along similar lines, not just because of grades, but also of giving my son more time to write essays and prepare for interviews, and perhaps coming up with something interesting and solid enough to talk about in his current research. </p>
<p>Even though on the surface there is no harm in EA because in most cases, even if you don’t get accepted right away, you are deferred to RD and get another shot at admissions. It would seem by going EA, you will be looked at twice and your chance would be no worse than the chance of applying RD. But, giving the shortened application cycle and the hectic 1st semester schedule with kids still trying to complete their standardized tests, there is a danger in rushing through the EA apps. You just may not have enough time to do a good job.</p>
<p>Yes, if you are deferred, you get another shot, but you don’t get to update your essays that you submitted in the EA round. Even if you do, it is likely an impression is already etched. If someone knows differently, please correct me. In other words, with EA you have shorter time and more pressure to finish up your essays and the rest of your apps than the hordes of RD kids who have two more months to do their apps. From what I’ve seen how my DS1’s apps have been progressing, time is very important.</p>