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<p>What is it with physics professor grandfathers? My H’s physicist grandfather said almost exactly the same thing when H graduated from college (UChicago) with his economics undergrad degree.</p>
<p>Except for Stanford (as far as I know) most colleges seen to welcome a couple of extra letters of recommendation. So if in doubt I’d do the university profs as extras. (George Washington U. told us one student sent in 19!!! letters. They said it was too many, but that they did read them all.)</p>
<p>For our older son we thought his high school recommendations would be fine, but that the outside letters would really illustrate how much he’d gone beyond the high school curriculum on his own.</p>
<p>This thread commences with the implied premise that the student which fits this mold is not the candidate for the top 20, T40 or whatever. Yet, the majority of the discussion is about applying and going to a top 20, T40 or whatever.</p>
<p>Probably, the better reflection is how can this kid be the premier applicant – and where. There are schools dying for your child. And gobs of money to throw their way as well. But, not the top 20 or T40 or whatever schools. So, I was hoping this thread would redirect people to the next level of schools, open some minds and perhaps introduce people to names which may otherwise only be regionally acclaimed. </p>
<p>If the child that fits this mold attends the Top 20/T40, you have a few likelihoods: (a) chances of acceptance are slim; (b) scholarship offers will be slimmer; and (c) your child may be over his or her head. All together this could create a lot of discomfort.</p>
<p>“blossom” has been eloquently saying things which I thought I had said. In short, I ask that threaders of these children redirect your well intentioned items and proceed to open yourself and child to top 100/T200 schools. Your child may well be as happy (God forbid happier) than at the name brand school, achieve more, and even receive (do I dare say it) an education which rivals the name brand. All together this could create a lot of comfort.</p>
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<p>God forbid our kids should be happier! How dare you say that schools outside the top twenty offer a good education!</p>
<p>God forbid you should state your opinion and leave it at that. God forbid you should leave your sarcasm at the door. We all love our kids and want them to be happy. We all know they can get a good education at many colleges that are not top-ranked. Yet, for their own various reasons, our kids intend to apply to top-ranked colleges.</p>
<p>Get over it.</p>
<p>FOB
because that is precisely the topic of THIS thread. So if you are looking for the “next level of schools” try another thread like [Brag</a> About Your Lesser Known Schools](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/370873-brag-about-your-lesser-known-school.html]Brag”>Brag about your "lesser known" school! - Parents Forum - College Confidential Forums) or [The</a> B+ Student Parents’ Thread](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/553940-b-student-parents-thread.html]The”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/553940-b-student-parents-thread.html). That’s where we discuss those options. Please do not try to redirect this thread where we explore T20 (T40+) schools.</p>
<p>I have been a long-time lurker on this thread because it has been valuable to hear others’ strategies and thoughts about applying to “T20” schools (lurking because we don’t exactly fit the original premise as S2 is applying to a T20 as a double legacy). My son is (currently) applying to 9 colleges. ONE is a T20 school. He has visited; not fallen-in-love with it; but is sincerely interested in attending and we all feel it would be a good fit, socially, spiritually and academically. But, whaddaya know…so would the other schools on his list.</p>
<p>If he can glean some insight into strengthening his application for this school, we appreciate the assistance from fellow posters. Believe me, we have also gotten plenty of information from the typical threads on his other college choices. It’s all good.</p>
<p>A letter needs to say more than applicant X was in my class and got an ‘A’. You want to select instructors that actually ‘know’ the applicant. When I put a letter together less than 20% focuses on academic performance. The majority focuses on ECs and attitude. Remember an ADCOM will read 100s of folders each season. A folder with 10or more worthless letters could potential be a turn-off.</p>
<p>My son is applying to a few top 20 schools - hence my interest in this thread - but he’s got other schools on his list. He’s not in love with any of them, and is not planning on being crushed by a lot of rejections. I think he’ll have an easier time than my older son who knew he was a top student - so those rejections stung. But he’s very, very happy at school number 22 (then 24) on The List having turned down school number 1 (then number 2). I know I have a bias toward brandname schools, but I really only want the schools that are the best fit for my kids.</p>
<p>Site worth value to this group.</p>
<p>I found this site useful years ago and it may aid in having a review done by allegedly quantitatively calculating computer (thereby missing the issues of special edges for any applicant). Eye opening.</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.collegedata.com/cs/admissions/admissions_tracker_result.jhtml?schoolId=687&classYear=2011[/url]”>https://www.collegedata.com/cs/admissions/admissions_tracker_result.jhtml?schoolId=687&classYear=2011</a></p>
<p>F of the B, be careful. I’ve been “chastised” by the mods in the past, CC’s rules of use prohibit links to other sites like the one you gave.</p>
<p>The info given in that site can be found more accurately at each college’s Common Data Set, most of the colleges have links to their Common Data Set on their websites.</p>
<p>One question keeps occurring to me …</p>
<p>(disclaimer…all of my children are past this phase in their lives; I follow this thread because I have a nephew who may be in this position next year)</p>
<p>and that question is what will actually get the admissions people to get past “page 1” of the application package?</p>
<p>I envision that, as the completed application packets arrive in the admissions office, some low-level person checks to see if the application is complete, and , if everything required is there, puts it in the applicable file with a summary sheet : name, rank, serial number, special status (urm, athlete, legacy, development ) and hands it off to the appropriate person for “review.”</p>
<p>What I wonder is whether the admissions person at one of the schools that is the subject of this thread, facing a ceiling-high stack of applicant files, sees Debby with a 3.55 and a 2200, with no check in the special status box, even really looks at the rest of the file? Really reads the essays and the letters of recommendation in depth, really assesses the applicant’s extra curricular participation?</p>
<p>It would seem to me that a lot of these applications would just be summarily put in the “deny” pile when these schools are rejecting four out of five, or more, of all the applicants…the application readers are going to have enough trouble distinguishing among the 3.8s and 3.95s and 4.0s, all having the same excellent scores and impressive extracurriculars as well, to fill their classes several times over…</p>
<p>How do you get the readers to go beyond Page 1 of the application packet to even get one of our students considered?</p>
<p>A number of schools we have visited have assured us they look at everything that gets sent in, no matter what. I don’t know, but if I was a Harvard admissions officer and was looking at someone with a B+ GPA I’d be looking at the rest of the application looking for what made that kid think he belonged at Harvard.</p>
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<p>Amen to that!!! While I appreciate the point of view those parents who think they are being helpful by trying to temper expectations, its’ getting a little old. One poster actually over to a specific college forum where prospective students hang out and proceed to tell them that their chances of getting in were poor and that they were wasting their time. This, in my opinion, was in very poor taste and makes me wonder what was the true motive of that parent.</p>
<p>People have the right to their dreams and, believe it or not, sometimes students do get into their reach schools and even into their dream jobs. My son has a couple of Top 20 on his list. He knows his chances of getting in are small. BUT I would never discourage him from applying because that would be sending the message, ‘Don’t bother trying unless you know you can succeed.’ Not the message I would want to give my child or any person for that matter.</p>
<p>A few years ago, I attended my brother’s college graduation at a ‘branch’ of a well-regarded state flagship. It was one of the campuses where students who couldn’t get into the flagship went.</p>
<p>The class val told a very moving story about how he desperately wanted to work on Wall Street. Unfortunately, Wall Street won’t hire you unless you attended an Ivy or Top 10. Well, this kid was not going to be deterred. He went on dozens of interviews (something insane like 50) before he finally landed his dream job on Wall Street. Everyone said he was crazy, interviewer after interviewer, professor after professor, tried to discourage him but he persisted and was successful. His parting words to the crowd was 'they said it couldn’t be done and I’m here to tell you it can."</p>
<p>Here’s the bottom line: don’t apply to your reach school (no matter whether it’s a Top 10, 20, 50 or 100) and you are 100% guaranteed you won’t get in. Apply and it might just be your lucky day.</p>
<p>I don’t have a kid in this year’s college draft (it seems like a college draft, doesn’t it?!?) but have been monitoring this thread off and on for awhile. I have to say I appreciate the efforts of some posters to “temper expectations” as described by MomLive. </p>
<p>As an outsider in this year’s application season, I see it a bit differently, perhaps. I see attempts by knowledgeable, seasoned parent posters to gently tug the hot air balloons, full of the hopes and dreams we have for our kids, back down closer to earth. Truly, I believe they are not trying to pop your kids’ balloons. They just want to get you back closer to reality so you won’t be dealing, instead, with balloons popped by the decision of admission staffs. Popped balloons, themselves, are not a problem unless you have no other real options because you spent most of your time and energy on the dream schools. It can be brutal in the spring. These posters you think are negative are just trying to help you and your kid avoid what could be devastation in early April. I don’t think there are other motives. These parents have seen it happen before and are trying to help you avoid it with your kids. And, I think, their comments are directed not just, or specifically, to the posters on this thread. There is a wider audience reading this thread and their message, in part, is directed as a reminder to the rest of the community.</p>
<p>Yes, dreams are great. My kids had or will have reach schools too. But most of their energy and my energy in helping them has to be directed to the safeties and matches on their lists. I have learned a lot on CC, but that is one of the big lessons.</p>
<p>My concern with this thread is not that kids shouldn’t dream and apply to reach schools if they want to. It’s all the wonderful opportunities that could be missed by being obsessed with the “prestigious” schools instead of some absolutely wonderful schools that aren’t ranked at the tippy-top of the USNWR scale. Why not spend more time looking for schools where your kid can find friends and classmates who will challenge them without leaving them in the dust? Schools that specialize in what your kid likes? </p>
<p>If a family spends most of their time and emotional energy focusing on the dream school, and gives mere lip service to the matches (let alone safeties), they are 90% sure to be setting themselves up for disappointment. The kid may leave for college in the fall feeling like they have been a disappointment to their parents, or feeling like they’ve had to “settle” instead of being excited about the opportunities ahead of them. </p>
<p>I understand the desire to find the “best” for your child. I really, truly, do. That’s why I urge you to remember - what USNWR considers best has NOTHING to do with what is best for any one particular person, including your kid. What’s best for your kid is a school where they feel comfortable yet challenged, where they find and make new friends, where they feel safe taking appropriate risks and trying new things. </p>
<p>At the very least, widen your search to the Princeton 323 Best Colleges (or 317 or whatever number they decided to put into their book). </p>
<p>I don’t mean to imply that your kids aren’t great or that you don’t want the best for them. But I honestly don’t think that focusing on Top 20 schools is what’s best for 3.5 kids. I have one of those kids.</p>
<p>The new world university ranking is available.</p>
<p>[THE</a> - QS World University Rankings 2009 - top universities | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results]THE”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results)</p>
<p>I started a discussion way up thread (many million posts ago 
) that USNWR’s ranking has a lot of vanity factors within USA (e.g., selectivity, yield, etc that produce the exclusive club-ness prestige), that affect the ranking, while the international rankings may show more of a global prestige and standing (I think this is important in the rapidly demoralizing environment our kids will operate in). If I garner to 25 USA schools within this international rankings, the ranking goes like this (within parenthesis, the world ranking). Note “real bargain” charmers like Boston U and NYU - as in these are schools that can be bought at a discount in terms of SAT, GPA etc. I am also happy to see some of our great public universities are getting their well deserved recognition. I believe USNWR with heavy dependence on the vanity factors are not giving them the due respect they deserve.</p>
<p>Another takeaway is, we are all so lucky that we have all these great universities we can send our kids to without sending them abroad… Note that 13 on the international top 20 schools are USA schools…</p>
<ol>
<li>H (1)</li>
<li>Y (3)</li>
<li>U Chicago (7)</li>
<li>Princeton (8)</li>
<li>MIT (9)</li>
<li>Cal Tech (10)</li>
<li>Columbia (11)</li>
<li>UPenn (12)</li>
<li>JHU (13)
10.Duke (14)
11.Cornell (15)
12.Stanford (16)
13.UMich (19)
14.CMU (27)
15.Brown (31)
16.Northwestern (32)
17.UCLA (32)
18.Berkeley (39)
19.NYU (52)
20.Boston U (54)
21.U Wisconsin-Madison (61)
22.U Illinois Champaign Urbana (63)
23.Washington U in ST (73)
24.U Texas Austin (76)
25.UC San Diego (76)</li>
</ol>
<p>“the international rankings may show more of a global prestige and standing (I think this is important in the rapidly demoralizing environment our kids will operate in)”
So it is not enough that the most selective, highly ranked colleges in the US are so hard to get into, you feel it is valuable to post another ranking? How is this supposed to help the “rapidly demoralizing environment” college applicants are currently experiencing?? Not only should they care about how the colleges they are hoping to be accepted are ranked nationally, but they should also now care about how the world ranks them? Oh, this is comforting…“Global prestige and standing” are just another way of reinforcing the same “prestige” driven justification for encouraging a student to apply to a “top 20” college because it IS a “top 20” college, imho… Has nothing been learned on this thread?? I really had hopes after reading the heartfelt suggestions in post 1313 and 1314…</p>
<p>^ Totally agree and I appreciate what those parents are saying. OTOH, those parents are making the assumption that parents who are discussing the Top 20 are:</p>
<p>1)banking on their student getting in
2)putting all of their energy into the dream schools
3)telling their kids that they are not good enough if they don’t get in</p>
<p>Nothing can be further from the truth - at least in my house. We have visited a number of Top 100 schools. Son is applying to at least 6 (and probably more) of those schools. He knows that he will probably not get into one of his reaches and that’s okay. His attitude is ‘why not apply?’ Will he be disappointed come spring? Probably. But that’s life. We ALL suffer disappointments and setbacks. Success in life comes from learning how to deal with disappointments, not trying to avoid them.</p>
<p>I’m not on this thread to try and find him an ‘advantage’ to getting into his reach schools. Heck, beyond taking him to visit colleges, I’ve have very little input into his college application process - haven’t seen an essay or application. He’s handling it all himself - as he should. We would be just as happy to have him go to the state flagship as to his reach schools. There are benefits and disadvantages to both types of schools - it’s not black and white by any means - despite the rankings. Quite frankly, with my son, his ‘thoughts’ on where he wants to go change quite often, so we are leaving the options wide open. In fact, should he even get into one of his reach schools, I’m not 100% certain he would accept. </p>
<p>My only reason for being on this thread is I do have a student who has under a 3.6 GPA and wants to apply to a Top 20 school. I was and am just curious about the whole process and what variables a student can control in that application process. I don’t, however, feel I need to be repeatedly lectured to about shifting my focus to another quartile. Once is enough, thank you. </p>
<p>Nor do I appreciate the implication that somehow we are focusing all of our energy on the Top 20 schools. Son has on his list: Kalamazoo, Hamilton, Lewis and Clark, Bates plus 3 in-state schools. I have spend just as much time researching those schools and visiting those schools as his reach schools.</p>
<p>I see this thread more as a discussion of under what circumstances does a 3.6 GPA or less still have a chance at a top 20 school. Most 3.6ers will have only a slim chance, but I’ve looked at the scattergrams for our school and there are a handful of schools where my son is by no means an outlier though he is on the edge of the greenish zone.</p>
<p>Again, I’ll repeat my mantra that GPA must be taken within the context of the school and the coursework. Naviance continues to provide fascinating data. Based on acceptance rates for students from S2’s program, the acceptance rates for students on his list range from 31% to 83%. One school has a 16% acceptance rate nationally, but took 75% of the applicants from S’s school (with enough data points to be relevant).</p>
<p>It is enough to make one alternatively hopeful and leery and utterly confused. In any event, S is down to one T-20 – but I’m not sure he could tell you which school on his list has that ranking.</p>
<p>YMMV.</p>
<p>I am all for a young person “winning the lottery” by getting into a T20/T40 school with borderline numbers as I am sure that person is academically capable of handling the curriculum.</p>
<p>The question I ask, and seemed to rile a few, is which is more rewarding to the student?: Getting into the big school or getting an out-of-this-world offer from a lesser school where money and trips and kudos are thrown at him or her?</p>