@al2simon, free speech at Yale didn’t extend to the frat boys chanting, “No means Yes, Yes means anal.” They were punished. And I have no doubt that the hypothetical frat boys marching around Yale singing the n##### lynching song would get the back of the hand from Yale as well.
Hannah, I would hope that there is no risk whatsoever. I think we should welcome controversial political opinions even white supremacist ones. I hope colleges would only want to know how well a kid thinks and expresses that thought, and not whether the thoughts are wonderful or obnoxious. The latter is scary!
@Momofjandl In the big picture, it is clear to me that the situation in Ferguson involves racial bias, and that bias is disturbing to me. I think individual situations can be argued, but not the totality of it. apparently, I the justice department agrees with me.
Only black people were ticketed for walking the wrong way in Ferguson. Not white people, only black people. Only black people gotten bitten by police dogs, including black children. Police dogs were not sicced on white children, only black children.
“What if someone writes an essay in support of more Israeli settlements or an independent Palestinian homeland? Let’s also say that it is a really good essay, well thought out and substantiated, with a lot of nuance and completely sensitive to the other side of the equation, something a political science major would be proud to write? Reject or accept?”
Sounds like someone’s not quite getting the purpose of a college admission essay - it’s not to argue for a particular point (it’s not debate class), it’s to provide insight into who you are as a person. Your particular views on topic X aren’t the topic.
CF- Yes, you’re right. I just thought the Yale statement was an eloquent articulation of why free speech was especially important in universities. Given some of the sentiment on this thread, I thought it might be worth reading and good food for thought.
Yale doesn’t pretend to be a free-speech absolutist; they’ll punish harassing speech, which was an exception I made in my “University 2” example. Your examples also fall under the "illegal " exception, since they probably violate Title IX and Title VI. Of course, I’m the guy who thinks that Emma Sulkowitz at Columbia should be disciplined for harassing a guy who was found not guilty by very publicly demanding his expulsion and calling him a rapist. In my al2simon-centric cosmology I’m being perfectly consistent on these issues; it’s everyone else who is being inconsistent or willing to abandon their principles to get the result they want.
Zekesima - Yes, of course you’re right. But the Yale policy doesn’t say that they don’t value civility and non-discrimination. In fact, it explicitly says they’re important. It just argues that freedom of expression is often more important in a university environment. When making admissions decisions I’m sure Yale tries to find students who aren’t racists, have good character, and who value both civility and freedom of expression; not just one or the other. Seems good to me.
Just to repeat, I think both values are very important, and reasonable people could choose differently on how to prioritize one over the other for private universities.
For public universities, I think freedom of expression has to trump. I think Boren engaged in civil-disobedience, where he willfully violated the law, policy, and due process in service of the very important value of non-discrimination. Civil disobedience can be perfectly fine. If I were a Regent, I’d simply tell him not to do it again but I wouldn’t sanction him; in fact, I’d praise his overall handling of the situation.
“So, singing about killing judges and juries on your way to the courthouse is okay, but not in the courtroom because it can be considered a threat.”
Yes, that’s why neither Bob Marley nor Eric Clapton are in jail for shooting the sheriff.
I can’t believe you are serious.
The essays may reveal something about the character of the applicant. You would seriously wish to welcome a white supremacist to your college community?!?
Certainly, the applicant has the right to write about anything they wish. The university has the right to decide that the essay reveals a person who is not suited to their community.And in that case, I sure as hell hope they would.
(I’m still trying to imagine that essay giving a well-reasoned rationale in favor of expanding Israeli settlements that also displays a full understanding of the opposing viewpoint of the dispossessed. And all in fewer than 500 words? By an 18 yr old?)
@awcntdb, I think you need to look at the poster’s statement re the relative safety of Singapore and assess what that reveals about their perception of the risks their child runs in the US.
Rgosula, thanks for the link.
Acwcnt, I get that you know the US constitution. It is a venerable, old document, but a lot has happened in rights talk since it was written. Often the individual rights it codifies are called first generation rights, rights that say no to the government. Second generation rights reflect alternative rights traditions that see human dignity as founded on the right to education, nutrition, healthcare, and safety, and they are highly valued throughout the world. They are not myself-anointed, self-serving opinion. I don’t honestly care if you prefer first generation rights and Lockean governance, but I wish you would read more broadly before you attack alternative world views. Maybe you could start by reading the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
^ I was once invited to a campus. I chatted amicably with the student chosen to pilot me around, and I asked him what he did for fun (it was a small college in a small town). He replied hat he mostly hung out with his KKK Junior Club (sorry, not the real name, but it was clearly the Ku Klux Klan for youth). I laughed, thinking he was kidding, but he thought I’d misunderstood, so he went on to explain it was the Ku Klux Klan but for young men, like the boy scouts but also including political education, with lots of outings, hiking, adventures, etc, that it was very cool. I pointed out the Boy Scouts didn’t defend a racist ideology, and he replied that neither did the KKK, that it was just propaganda to make them look bad but totally untrue.
I have no idea if “KKK jr club” was on his list of ECs but since it sounded like that’s what he mostly did in college, I suppose he hadn’t started there, and had it as an EC in HS (or perhaps he explained it as a HS activity he continued in college).
(And no, this was not in the South.)
The university may not have been at fault, but it totally colored (still does) my view of that college that a student selected to represent it would belong to a white supremacist group and be oblivious about it to a guest the university was trying to impress (perhaps thinking it “normal” or indeed, as he said, “cool adventures”)
(Note that I don’t especially “look white” so it was hard not to take this as a hostile comment.)
Wow, @MYOS1634 Just wow.
@alexanderill You know what they say about assume. It makes an ass out of u and me. I am practicing attorney and I have worked on a number of first amendment cases over the years. And no I did not go to HLS. And by the way I stand by my statement in 598 and I would include you in that group . As to the first amendment and child pornography look at New York vs. Ferber and Ashcroft vs Free Speech Coalition. First Amendment rights are not unlimited and to think they are or should be is just naive
You missed the context.
Finally a voice of reason and voice of an AA at OU.
A Message From Tyrone Speller, Phi Delta Theta Chapter President At The University Of Oklahomahttps://www.phideltatheta.org/2015/03/message-tyrone-speller-phi-delta-theta-chapter-president-university-oklahoma/
This week, The University of Oklahoma has gone from being known as one of the most prestigious schools in the country to being unfairly characterized as a racist institution. The actions of the members of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity have deeply saddened me and the rest of the OU community, though I do not feel they represent the views of the entire OU Greek community and the University.
As an African American male in the OU Greek community, I was recently elected president of Phi Delta Theta, the highest leadership role in a chapter that is the fourth largest on campus and a regular contender for awards from our headquarters. In my experience, the majority of the OU Greek community is inclusive of all minorities, and it saddens me to see our Greek community being painted as “racist” according to the media and even fellow OU students. While I am in no way excusing the actions of the members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, I think it is important that our local community and the rest of our nation do not let one small group overshadow the true nature of Greek life at OU. The actions of the members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon were rooted purely in ignorance and were those of incredibly immature “children” — but it is not representative of today’s richly diverse culture in our Greek community.
As a member of the African American student body, I am very disappointed with both the initial incident and many of the subsequent reactions of the media and the student body. I believe that the media has neglected to cover all aspects of the events these past few days. I agree with punishing the students responsible for the chant and hosting demonstrations to encourage equality, but I am also deeply troubled by the students who decide to vandalize the property of other Greek houses or members in retaliation. I have heard of tires being slashed on Greek affiliated cars and indiscriminate threats of violence being sent to Greek members, but these incidents fail to be included in news coverage. All of this is completely uncalled for. When students feel hurt, they should not turn around and do the same thing in response. I had hoped that everyone would have been mature and let the University handle the problem at hand. It is pure and simple, you cannot fight hate with hate.
My experience in the OU Greek community has been an incredible one. This community has helped make me into the person I am today. It has never been about color, creed, sexual preference, etc. This Greek community truly is a family, has welcomed me, and is one of the reasons I attend this university. Going through recruitment, I never once felt out of place — not even in my experiences with members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon.
In regards to inclusiveness within the OU Greek community, other multicultural fraternities and student groups are able to participate alongside the IFC and Panhellenic organizations in many University activities, including homecoming, intramurals, Sooner Scandals, etc., and I encourage them to do so. Being a person of color in a predominately white fraternity has helped me and my fellow brothers learn much from each other by sharing our different backgrounds with one another. But the divisive reactions from many different groups on campus to this current situation has left me feeling as if I am being torn between two major components that make me who I am.
People need to realize that this is not a “minorities” vs. the “Greeks” battle. This is not a choice between two competing cultures. We are one student body. The Greek and African American aspects of my life should not be difficult to balance. The outrage and shock at the actions of a few ignorant, small minded people is equally as great amongst the Greeks that I know and respect as well as among my African American brothers. The anger, however, needs to be directed at those few who should be held accountable for their own bad behavior and not at an entire class of people in one broad stroke.
It disappoints me when the good in Greek life does not make headlines and is overshadowed by this horrible story. For example, last week OU students (mainly Greeks) raised over half a million dollars at Soonerthon which is OU’s official philanthropy benefiting the local Children’s Hospital. That is a truly remarkable accomplishment. Yet today, all we are talking about is the narrow-minded, hateful views of a few individuals.
I do not believe that OU is racist, nor do I believe that racism is prevalent within the OU Greek community, but it will take time to remove this horrible stain that has been brought upon the University. I hope our nation realizes that OU is and always will be a university of acceptance and equal opportunity. You just have to take the time to focus on the right things.
Tyrone Speller
Phi Delta Theta Chapter President
Oklahoma Alpha at the University of Oklahoma
MYO, what school? I think the school environment had to have something to do with his willingness to casually disclose such affiliations on a tour. Though I’ve never been there, it’s hard to imagine this happening at Harvard.
Consolation, Obviously it’s not an topic for a college essay and it is unlikely to be written by a 17 yer old, but it is a hypothetical that you have to read it in context. I was responding to Hanna’s post that an essay supporting the KKK would keep someone out of college. That’s why I asked whether a well written essay supporting Zionism or the Hammas would keep someone out of college too, and if not (as Hanna suggested, low risk) then I don’t see why a white supremacist essay would keep someone out. I can guarantee you that there are people who consider support of Zionism or the Hammas as an indicator of poor character. I am not a college ad com. But I teach (undergraduate and graduate) and if a student comes to me with a very well written essay about a very controversial topic, I wouldn’t throw him out or judge his character just because the topic is controversial or even obnoxious. First, he has the right to think the way he wants to. Second, if his thinking is clear, I would like to encourage that thinking. Finally, if I find the topic obnoxious, I would debate him and not shut him down. I guess that’s the old liberal in me talking. There is a reason why hate speech is Constitutionally protected. What’s hate speech for you is eloquent oratory to another. As long as there is no physical threat or injury, thinking to me is all kosher all the time. As Voltaire said, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Or, more colloquially, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
I think Boren panicked about the court of public opinion and got it wrong. The University will suffer as a result.
The Yales DKEs is a much easier legal case than the OU SAEs.
The DKEs were loudly chanting a rape song while marching outside through the part of campus where most freshman Yale females have their dorms. Drunken frat boys are known to commit rape on occasion at Yale and at other schools.
The SAEs sang a racist song with lynching references while on a rented bus containing no black male students and only white males who were members of the frat. No evidence that anyone outside the bus heard anything. Lynchings of black male students by white male students do not happen on U.S. college campuses.
The DKEs are a tap-in for threat/hostile environment. As a white dude, I think the SAEs, in contrast, are a 260 yard two iron out of the rough for a threat/hostile environment. But I could see how a black guy would think differently about that.
Here is another voice at OU from an AA. This is from the AP from March 10
"Some students at OU, particularly African-Americans who make up about 5 percent of the campus population, said racism is alive and well and that a mostly segregated fraternity and sorority system is at least partially to blame for creating an environment where racism can thrive.
“It’s too segregated,” said Markeshia Lyon, a junior from Oklahoma City who is black. “That’s something that’s passed down, and that’s something that needs to change.”
Lyon recalled trying to attend a fraternity party her freshman year with several friends, all of whom were African-American, and being told they were not welcome.
“It was very hurtful,” she said. “I would never set foot on that street again.”
Not exactly sure what your point is, as I’ve never suggested I believe the First Amendment protects child pornography. That seems to be a strawman argument you were using with Hunt (who also never suggested the First Amendment protects child pornography). Practicing attorney or not, your posts don’t indicate a desire to participate in productive conversation, so carry on without me.