There will never be a kie is SAE
There will never be a kie is SAE
You can gas him like Nazis but he’ll never sign with me
There will never be a ki*e is SAE.
Would you STILL dismiss the song as “a bunch of giggly boys saying bad words and probably not even fully understanding what the [gassing Jews] reference meant” ???
Zekesima, I get what you are saying. That’s why I posted earlier that I was glad the football recruit made another choice. If he were my son, I would be worried about him on the campus. Not because I think he would be lynched, but because of less obvious things. LIke if he were in trouble, would people help him? Would he be treated with suspicion in the ordinary course of life? If he did try to join a fraternity (or a marching band), which have had some very public incidents of deadly hazing, would he be the first target? Those are the things I would worry about, and in a climate that is now so racially polarized (and obviously has problems leading to this point), I would not allow my baby boy to attend that school either.
This situation has also been cause for conversation in my house. My son had mentioned that in choosing colleges he wouldn’t be opposed to attending a Greek heavy school. I’ve never been keen on that, but between the frozen off fingers last week and this insanity, I told him he will not go to a Greek heavy school and he will never, ever join a fraternity if I am paying for anything. I don’t want to worry about his safety and I certainly don’t want him sucked in to group disgusting behavior or even to be innocent personally and to suffer consequences as a result of being part of a larger group. Let him do his own thing and face his own consequences.
Someone asked if there were any black pledges for SAE at OU. The answer is: not only pledges, but actual members. And fairly recently.
http://betweenthenotes.me/2015/03/09/there-will-never-be-another-black-s-a-e/
@Zekesima I will answer your hypothetical about gassing jews. I would think the exact same thing about that situation as I do about this one, if the tape showed a bunch or college kids chanting a song in private and not exhibiting obvious anger or intent to harm (e.g. chanting the same song in front of a Jewish frat etc). I would also say the same thing if it was a group of Black Panthers singing “kill all Honkies 'cause they’re all descendants of slave owners”
We need to distinguish how the song was intended, and how it would be received. The students may not really think it’s a good idea to lynch people, but if it was my son they were “joking” about killing-- let’s say they were “joking” about killing people on the autism spectrum-- I wouldn’t see the humor. In the back of my mind, I’d be afraid. Let’s say I’m hearing songs about beating up disabled people: maybe they wouldn’t actually think it was a good idea to beat up disabled people, but I know that in the past, people like them have beaten up disabled people. It’s no joke to me.
It’s not harmless silly fun. It’s far from harmless. Real people are harmed.
Sorry, but the way I am raising my kids, they would NEVER say, sing, or joke about such a thing EVER. And they are smart enough to know what lynching ni–gers and gassing ki*es means.
I am amazed at so many of you who are excusing these kids. Is this not a site full of tiger parents and high achieving kids who are the cream of the crop? These kids should know better, right? Just SMH.
There may be first amendment issues with this event. I don’t know why we should come to any conclusion that these guys aren’t racists.
What these guys sang is offensive. What they said is racist. Most non racists would not chant this crap. I wouldn’t bet much that these guys aren’t racists.
As a Jew, if some fraternity started singing pro Nazi garbage, my thoughts would not be, “The guys are just having fun. They aren’t anti-semitic”.
There are Jews here and deep down, I think they feel the same way.
This is just another insult to the African American… “They didn’t mean it. They aren’t racist”.
One of the things that determines what you are is what you do! The choices you make!
“I am not a racist. I just say racist bs when I am drunk and with my friends”.
Yeah…
My comment was in response to JHS’s post that this was harmless and did not mean these guys were racist. Of course, not every organization that is not diverse is automatically racist. It is a more likely guess, however, for an organization that is both not diverse AND sings songs that clearly support discrimination. I don’t buy the “boys being bad” scenario. These guys did not grow up under a rock and so certainly knew that this was racist.
There are exemptions, but in most cases organizations that get money from a college have to be non-discriminatory. That would mean that the Muslim Student Org would have to welcome all, but would not have to change their religious practices. There may well be some non-Muslims who are interested in the religion. Our local Methodist church had the best youth group and many non-Methodists would go. If only Muslims join, that is one thing and would not suggest discrimination (it is a religious group of course). If a non-Muslim tried to join and was turned away, that would be discrimination.
Re 675-676: I thought of that as an explanation PG, but there is likely a reason that black men do not show up at SAE - because they are not made welcome. Don’t frats to some extent identify those they want to rush before the formal process and reach out to them? Agree we don’t know for certain, but seems like the “preponderance of the evidence” suggests some racial bias and not just self selection. According to the Frat Move guy, other frats at OU are racially diverse.
In defense of JHS, the original quote was " That doesn’t absolve them of racism, or white privilege, at all – they virtually embody white privilege …" JHS’s defense was weak, actually: they’re racists, but they’re not in favor of lynching.
Thank you, dstark and CF.
“The students may not really think it’s a good idea to lynch people, but if it was my son they were “joking” about killing-- let’s say they were “joking” about killing people on the autism spectrum-- I wouldn’t see the humor.”
No one is saying you have to see the humor in their little ditty. I don’t think it’s “funny” to use the n-word or to “joke” about hanging black people from trees. It sure isn’t my sense of humor. I find it offensive and inappropriate.
But that doesn’t mean I have to go all the way to believing that they actually intend, desire, or support the idea of hanging black people from trees, either. Any more than Eric Clapton really intended to shoot the sheriff.
There is a difference between being racist and being ignorant and unthinking and thoughtless.
Precisely. If a non-Muslim joins and is turned off by the teaching of The Prophet, that’s the non-Muslim’s problem, and the Muslims do not have to change their own religious practices to accomodate the non-Muslim.
Similarly, if a racist group wants to be racist behind closed doors, that’s their right too. If others feel threatened by that, well, as Hunt said, they have to take that up with James Madison.
“Don’t frats to some extent identify those they want to rush before the formal process and reach out to them?”
Terms are wrong. The frats don’t rush students. Students rush the frats - that is, they attend parties to get to know the guys. And how can a frat identify who they want to bid / pledge until, well, they meet the guys out there, which is what happens during rush?
I think you are misinterpreting what some of us are saying. There are not “so many” people excusing them. Almost every single one of us that is arguing about 1st Amendment rights has explicitly said that there is no excuse for what they did. I have said all along that I would have come down hard on the kids, but stopped short of expelling them.
I will turn the tables with a hypothetical for you. Last night Fox News carried an interview from Ferguson with a young AA man. He said that he agreed with the shooting of the 2 cops during a protest. His quote was basically “an eye for an eye”. In that volatile situation and public situation, with specific targets like that, do you think he should be arrested?
I think a lot of people would argue that there is a huge difference between what he did and what the frat guys did. e.g. there is a recent history, etc.
I would argue that he should not be arrested, that his statement is protected by free speech, and that is A H#ll of a lot more inflammatory than the frat boys.
PS- that doesn’t mean I condone or excuse what he said. I find it abhorrent, but I would still allow it.
First amendment rights are not unlimited. These are not just silly harmless kids I would not want my kids anywhere near them. These kids create hostile environments which are blatantly illegal and morally wrong in virtually all settings
Well it seems that lawsuit(s) will likely be coming as the fraternity has just lawyered up in a big way.
“Of course, not every organization that is not diverse is automatically racist. It is a more likely guess, however, for an organization that is both not diverse AND sings songs that clearly support discrimination. I don’t buy the “boys being bad” scenario. These guys did not grow up under a rock and so certainly knew that this was racist.”
Yes, of course they knew it was offensive- which is why it was “fun” and “subversive” and “look how cool I am” to say it. That’s the whole point why they did it in front of their buddies, and not in front of the African-American club meeting.
I think you people are waaaaay overthinking the extent to which this represents True Bedrock Principles That All OU SAE’s Are Sworn to Uphold, versus stupid ditty that a stupid drunk freshman stupidly sang. It’s almost like some of you have never been around stupid freshmen before!
We can only control our own behavior and not other people’s reactions to it. Tell me, Cardinal Fang, would you change your opinions if you were shown that it was not being well received at all by many?
I’m getting the feeling here that for some people, nothing counts as racist. Singing racist songs isn’t racist. Having [implicit racist reactions](Take a Test) isn’t racist. Arresting black people for crimes that you don’t arrest white people for isn’t racist. Shooting black young men for behavior that white young men don’t get shot for isn’t racist. Throwing away resumes with “black” names on it isn’t racist. Nothing, nothing at all is racist.
I don’t think any (or certainly most) think these men were going out to find someone to lynch. Some, however, think this goes way beyond being thoughtless to being racist and to supporting discrimination in their organization. I agree they may just be idiots and probably expulsion was not fair without some sort of hearing.
The most recent (and second) black member was 14 years ago and he wrote (from TV4’s link):
Pretty much sums it up well for me.
Perhaps it is their right to be racist behind closed doors, but it is not their right to be part of the University and to be racist in their acceptance policies.