University of Oklahoma Fraternity suspended

Zekesima, Let’s turn the question around: Does it matter? You can’t punish someone for some future crime you think they may commit. In the mean time, they have full right to express their opinions.

College is supposed to be a place where kids come out of the bubble that they grew up in and get exposed to other ideas and opinions, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I think there is a general tendency among many these days to create a bubble in college as well and make it the second coming of pre-school where it is all paper rainbows and class guinea pigs.

College kids are adults. Adults can’t be so fragile. They can’t break down just from the knowledge that, Yes, Virginia, there are racists all over the campus.

“Also, Roithmayer did NOT say this it was a legal action, and therefore dissent, with the other Constitutional Scholars. She said it might have been legal. There is a fine, but important, distinction.”

^ There are many cases which come up before the Supreme Court and the Court finds there is another reason to find something constitutional or not that is different from the argument put before the court. For instance - Roberts finding the ACA mandate constitutional because of Congress’ power to levy taxes - not because of Congress’ power to regulate interstate commerce - which was what the Gov’t argued to the Court.

Well, PG is blasting people here for assuming the worst about these kids. She believes the best re: them. I happen to believe that people can’t say such things as this unless they really have accepted the idea that “those people” don’t matter one whit. I am not convinced that these kids would not follow through with their threat if they were afforded the opportunity (no consequences). What evidence do you have that they really didn’t mean what they said?

Yes, Pizzagirl, we are. And as I recall from the flasks brought into the games, sometimes we are actually doing so.

But I agree that the brothers in this case were repeating a naughty ditty without thinking too hard about it. It is indeed a vile ditty, and their willingness to sing it may point to at least an acceptance of casual racism, but they clearly did not mean it as a threat to take violent action. Hearing that enough would probably get the message through to new members that AA students wouldn’t be welcome during rush, but the appropriate disciplinary action is not immediate expulsion. If AA students heard it they would certainly be expected to feel unwelcome.

“Those fraternity brothers had a long time to scotch the disgusting song. They didn’t. For three or more years, they knew about the song and didn’t stop it.”

“They” are not a many-headed hydra. “They” do not have complete, 100% mind-control over their members. Have you ever run an organization? The president or other leader could say “hey guys, under my watch, I don’t want you doing X” and guess what? Some guys are still going to go to do X. That’s how social circles work, CF.

You seem to think that all 100 (or whatever) members were fully unified in their belief that this was the right song to teach, sing and pass on, and that they were in full support anytime any brother decided to sing it.

Yes, Pizzagirl, I have heard many leaders say we are going to be ethical and inclusive and honest, and I have seen managers under them turn around and act otherwise. It is hard to get people to quit misbehaving. It is at least a good sign when they understand that their conduct is in fact socially unacceptable and should be hidden.

I’m just relying on what the alumni of that very chapter said, PG.

Should I not take them at their word?

PG: And I wish you would stop painting those of us who disagree with your interpretation as fraternity hating idiots who think this means these boys are going go lynch somebody. We don’t. You have yet to even accept that it is just possible that this was not just a stupid drinking song and possibly a reflection of fraternity beliefs. You may be right that it was not meaningful, but others could be just as right to think these guys understood the song and believed that black men have no place in SAE, even if they would not go out and lynch someone or may even have a black aquatintance or two.

Parker Rice did not say he didn’t understand what he was singing. He said he was wrong to join in. He also went to a Jesuit high school. I am very certain that the Jesuits taught their students about lynching and discrimination.

I don’t think this means all frat boys are racist. I don’t even think these boys should have been expelled. But I think it is ridiculous to not even consider that it may be more than a silly ditty sung in a thoughtless way.

Is anyone in disagreement here? Why do you think the law professors are siding with the First Ammendment while the public at large is ready to crucify those kids who sang that song? Are we not teaching civics in K-12? How can the American public at large be so out of tune with their own Constitution?

Actually, neither of the those dissenting opinions have said that they think it was legal. They have said that “you could make a plausible argument”. There is a HUGE difference. @RondoinBFlat made the statement that not a single scholar has said that it is legal and I would argue that he is correct. You do, however, have 2 who do not say it was definitely legal.

Comments about the first amendment are very true, that offensive speech is not in of itself actionable via the first amendment. To some of the kind who wear their patriotism on their sleeve, burning a flag is tantamount to declaring war on the US, to someone like myself it is a stupid act that won’t do anything, but I firmly believe it is covered by the first amendment. Some people think that erotica and porn should be banned, because it is offensive or because their Bible tells them so or whatever, but again, it is the first amendment. And I absolutely agree that the first amendment has to be given serious weight, it cannot be overridden arbitrarily.

And like all first amendment issues, it is not always clear cut, as pointed out with incidents at the Cal State schools versus what happened at OU, where Muslims yelled “Allah Akbar” at Jewish Students (with said words having direct ties to terrorism, the 9/11 terrorists used those words when they crashed the planes on 9/11) and nothing happened, it is always open to interpretation.

However, to argue that physical harm is the only harm and the first amendment applies to anything except where physical harm happens or could happen (yelling fire in a movie, incitement to riot) is not correct. Clarence Thomas pointed out that cross burning is not covered by the first amendment, because the burning cross is a symbol of intimidation, it is not a bunch of drunk white guys having some fun, that the intent is to threaten anyone the Klan doesn’t like, and given the Klan’s long history, it is not an unreasonable one (and in that guise, the Muslim Students in California should have been censored IMO). On the other hand, the student who said the flag to them represented repression, and said the flag should not be flown, is making political speech, no group is singled out, there is no implied harm, it may be an unpopular position, but no one is harmed other than those who fetishize the flag beyond what it is, who think the flag itself has some magical properties…

With schools, public (and obviously private) the first amendment can be tempered by other factors that may not seem relevant but are. For example, if they feel the actions of the frat boy morons hurts the image of the school, they may have grounds to act, if being admitted to the school the student agrees to a code of conduct towards fellow students, and if that violates that, it could be considered a breach of their right to be there, first amendment or no first amendment, if there is justification for suppressing the speech. Does what the idiots did in this case justify expulsion? If the university argues that their actions cause harm to the school, if there is something they can convince a court of, then the first amendment doesn’t apply, because the need of the school can override it. Likewise, while public employees enjoy some free speech rights private employees do not, if an employee of the post office made public statements badmouthing their boss, or the heads of the postal system., or if for example they made racist remarks about patrons of the post office, they could be fired, their right to free speech is limited, even though the post office is considered a government agency (well, bounced back and forth, but I believe it still is). Speech that is detrimental to a public work environment in how it functions is not covered, and speech that disrupts a campus, or otherwise interferes with how it does business, could and has overriden the first amendment. With any right, there are always limits, and what it generally comes down to is that those who act against the first amendment have the burden to show that their actions were for a legitimate reason, and the bar is pretty high, but it does exist, might be higher or lower depending on the place and time, but it is there, the first amendment is neither absolute nor all binding, nor is it necessarily well defined.

That is a great question, but what evidence do you have that they did mean it? That is equally important.

Sorry. The needs of the school (whatever those are) don’t override the First Amendment, musicprint.

That would create a fiction any school could use to ban any speech that the school didn’t like. That’s the antithesis of the First Amendment.

No no no absolutely no. Allah Ho Akbar means God is Great. Literally. Allah = God. Akbar = Great. Ho = is/be. It is a pure religious chant no different from Praise the Lord! (I do not know what the equivalent will be for Jewish folks, but I am suspecting that there is such a phrase, as all religions seem to have one.)

No damn way should that be censored. That some group used it when crashing planes into NYC or exploding bomb jackets in Israel means nothing. Remember the sniper from the film Saving Private Ryan who used to chant from the Bible before he would kill enemy soldiers? That doesn’t make the Bible a book of pure hatred. It just goes to show that some people use religion as a war chant, and have done so for generations - remember the Crusades?

As for the rest of your post, musicprnt, do you realize that the song was sang in a private function away from the University? So why are you comparing it to a public event in the post office? Do you think the Post Office can fire someone because in their private life they are a racist? No way.

I don’t have any evidence. I readily admit that. What I am bothered by is that PG and a few others seem to think that it is ridiculous to think that they MIGHT have meant it. She speaks of the incident as if she KNOWS they DIDN’T mean it, in fact, and makes fun of anyone who thinks otherwise.

I totally agree with this. I have never argued otherwise.

Again, they scholars I cited do not believe that what Boren did violated the students constitutional rights and they gave their arguments for that.

Arguments put forth before a court and weighed by the court determine whether something is constitutional or not. There are arguments, plausable ones, to be made that Boren did not violate the students’ Constitutional rights - which is what those scholars have presented.

Yet they are in a narrow minority. Just like the USSC rules by majority, in this case if you count the votes of the legal scholars who have publicly commented on this, the case is pretty simple - the First Ammendment rights of the two kids were violated.

Are you freakin’ serious? Did the use of Allah Akbar by Very Bad People Doing Very Bad Things somehow render those words a crime for other people to say?

I’m particularly stuck by the comments of this so called dissenter.

He then goes on to talk about applying a different standard and use the “unsafe environment” standard to expel the students, but then says

Doesn’t sound like someone who is sure that the expulsions were legal