Since the frat building is owned by OU, there is probably a lease. That lease is probably between OU and the local chapter of SAE, not the individual members. So, if the national organization has dissolved the local chapter, it no longer exists. The individual members have no right to stay after the lessee is dissolved. Alternatively, the lease may be between OU and the national and the national organization’s expulsion of the chapter means the people living there have no right to do so. Even when the lease is with the local chapter, I think it is common for the local chapter to have the lease but for the national to guarantee it. If the chapter is expelled, the guarantee is probably void. The loss of the guarantee probably constitutes a breach of the lease.
Obviously, I’m just guessing, but I think it’s highly unlikely that the individual members have any right to stay once the local chapter is dissolved.If an individual member were kicked out of SAE, it’s unlikely he’d have the right to stay in the frat house. In effect, all of the members of the OU chapter have been kicked out since the chapter was dissolved, so they have no right to stay either.
I don’t think you have to get into free speech issues at all. SAE has a right to expel the local chapter for what they said since it’s not a government entity. Once they don’t belong to SAE, they have no right to stay in a building rented to SAE.
Expelling them from OU is an entirely different question.
@Qwerty568 I worry about the precedent that expelling the students for hate speech would set, hence why I’m cautious about recommending that they be punished beyond the scope of losing their house.
However, the reporting is over the top. One article I saw said that “SAE touts its links to the Confederacy on its website”! Well, no, they simply relate their history, which includes being founded in the south.
The same article also buried the fact that a lawyer for SAE national has told chapters in the past they may lose their charter if they fly the confederate flag.
As reprehensible and disgusting as I find the confederate flag, it’s hard for me to argue people don’t have rights to fly flags, even ones I find offensive.
Why would the OU SAE chapter find it appropriate to have a confederate flag hanging, Oklahoma wasn’t even a state during the Civil War. This flag is inappropriate in the state of Oklahoma and I believe points to the racist elements of that chapter.
This was not a private conversation as it was on a bus with women who were not members. That makes it public speech. As discussed on other threads, colleges set rules for being a student in good standing and for organizatIons. No discrimination on race is probably one. Not creating a hostile environment is another. How is that different than telling a student he can’t make racist statements to his hall mates, since he would be creating a hostile environment? He would still be free to make those statements outside the university and so his free speech rights are not curtailed, his ability to intimidate or harass others is however.
Hate speech codes adopted by many colleges definitely can have first amendment problems. Plenty of court cases about those.
Hate speech regulation can be justified in cases where the speech is harassment of an individual or where there’s a risk of incitement of violence (the classic fighting words). In those cases, the problem is the MODE of expression (which can be regulated). But the message contained in the expression cannot be regulated.
Hard to see how the SAE song in that context posed any risk of harassment or incitement. So I’d guess it is it is likely protected. I don’t think it matters whether that situation is public or private. The question is whether in that context the speech was imminently dangerous or harassment.
I’d doubt OU can punish the kids directly for this. But OU can come down on the local and national frat. And the national can come down on the local frat.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Smart phones can bring sunlight to a lot of places.
The national already came down. Hard and immediately.
There appear to be different schools of thought. One is - SAE national is a racist organization, they encourage this kind of behavior, and they only closed down the OU chapter to pacify the media, but secretly they’re sitting back in Evanston rubbing their hands with glee and saying darn right we won’t allow any n-words in SAE, their only mistake was getting caught. Oh, and go Dixie.
The other is - SAE national is full of decent, honorable men who are disgusted by the actions of a few jerks and will make sure in no uncertain terms the message is communicated that we don’t stand for this.
Whether you think 1 or 2 likely has to do with how favorable you are to the idea of the Greek system in general.
Did you see that the young high school recruit has now decided against attending Oklahoma? Good for him. If he were my little boy I wouldn’t even consider letting him attend there with all this controversy swirling.
Would it be legal for the university to designate a dorm as whites only? Because that is the impact of saying that blacks can never join the frat.
We’re not talking about free speech here - we’re talking about illegal practices. The frat doesn’t just believe in racial discrimination, it is acting in a racially discriminatory way. And it does at least claim it supports murder, which after all is what lynching is. Unless you can point to more than one current members of the frat who is black, the chant is evidence of intent to break the law, and white membership is evidence they acted on their intent. I just can’t see that the law forces a university to lend their name and accord special standing to people who support illegal activities.
If they chanted that they hated black people, that’s just opinion and is protected. On the other hand, the national chapter would probably have still deep-sixed them. I would assume that (aside from the fact that OU appears to own the frat house) the university has a rule that frats have to be associated with a recognized organization. Once the students have been thrown out of the organization, they probably no longer have claims to housing priveleges at the university that are greater than any other student at the university.
SAE is not the only fraternity that has racist beliefs. Kappa Alpha Order fraternity has a chapter at OU that predates Oklahoma statehood. The fraternity was founded in Virginia during the civil war and strongly identifies itself with Robert E. Lee and the “values” of the Confederacy.
The boys that join these organizations do not suddenly become racist when they go to College. Organizations like KA and SAE are the elephant in the room for colleges and Universities. Everyone knows their reputations and they hope the elephant doesn’t cause a ruckus during their watch.