I wonder what OU would do to students filmed singing some of the disgusting lyrics to some rap songs?
^Right. That is why I put “protected” in quotes. I should have been more direct. He was not punished by the law, but he was not protected from punishment by anyone and everyone else.
@TatinG Has OU done anything to the students, yet?
Please stop conflating the hideous lyrics of some genres of “popular” music with the rants of bigots and true misanthropes.
The president of OU did say that they were not going to help the students find new housing. In some places, that would be a huge deal. I don’t know about Norman.
You are not always protected from the consequences of your speech - even if you are free to say anything you’d like. For instance, I don’t believe OU can expel the students from school and they cannot be arrested for singing that song, for example - but it sounds like they are perfectly in the right to kick them out of their campus owned frat house. I’m sure if someone in that frat believes their 1st Amendment rights have been violated by the university, they will bring suit.
Private entities can pretty much do what they want regarding speech. Imus, for example, was suspended and eventually cancelled altogether, from MSNBC, for remarks he made about a women’s college basketball team. There have been other more recent examples of similar things which I can’t recall at the moment - but it is not unusual at all.
I am all for social censure for hate speech, racist rants or music, misogynist rhetoric, etc. Expose them, shame them, shun them, let their private social clubs kick them out, etc. I am NOT for legal consequences for speech that cannot be shown to be slander, libel, or other clearly prohibited forms of speech.
Question for those who believe the songs sung by these idiots in the confines of a bus qualifies as speech threatening or inciting violence and who advocate legal consequences for same:
Did you also advocate legal consequences for Michael Brown’s stepfather for shouting out “Burn this bitch down” in a televised, public setting the night it was announced that officer Wilson would not be indicted?
“Please stop conflating the hideous lyrics of some genres of “popular” music with the rants of bigots and true misanthropes.”
Some of them are indistinguishable once you take away the sound production.
I’m still trying to figure out why it’s ok for Kanye to use the n-word a dozen times in his latest song but not OK for the SAE boys to say it. (I’m not saying it’s ok for anyone to say it; I’m asking why the distinction.)
“Question for those who believe the songs sung by these idiots in the confines of a bus qualifies as speech threatening or inciting violence and who advocate legal consequences for same:”
I haven’t seen anyone on this thread advocate for legal consequences for these students. Can you point me to posts which said that?
Paula Dean is another celebrity who was punished (non-governmentally) for her spoken words.
Well, for one thing, Kanye’s use of it doesn’t suggest a desire to discriminate against black people, nor does it express an opinion that black people are inferior to whites. It means something different when he uses it than it does when a bunch of white frat guys use it.
That being said, I think he’d be a good leader if he stopped using it. I believe if was Richard Pryor who stopped using it after visiting Africa, remarking that he didn’t see an “n-words” there.
Several posters have said this speech should qualify as illegal as it can be construed to be a threat or inciting violence. Isn’t the natural consequence of illegal speech which incites violence or makes threats legal action? I know at minimum it has been suggested that they have lost their right to their education at a public entity because of speech which occurred within the confines of a bus.
It is extremely far-fetched to say that this chant was inciting imminent violence. See the quote from Brandeis somebody posted above.
@emilybee, here are some posts which alluded to the speech being illegal, to the possibility of legal action being taken or appropriate, and in one post, even references to criminal consequences:
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If this had happened at a private university, I suspect that the university could dismiss the students with few consequences.
I don’t expect that a public university can do so just because of reprehensible speech. At least, I hope not.
But I believe that others are also free to exercise their own free speech rights:
- Fellow students are free to say that they don’t want to share the campus with these folks
- Professors, administrators and other employees are free to say that they find the speech despicable, and don’t want to share the campus with these folks (“Don’t want” is not the same as “Will expel” in my book)
- SAE National can close and expel the membership at Oklahoma if that is allowable under their own private membership rules
- The students involved can be named and outed and those name publicized by any one who chooses to do so. In the world of on-line search, that might cause these students a world of hurt down the line. I imagine a prospective employer who conducts an on-line search and finds that the applicant was involved in this would think long and hard about offering employment.
I don’t see expulsion/dismissal as being a reasonable option, or a necessary one. The natural consequences that are going to follow these folks will be plenty severe as is. I’m not seeing any reason to try and limit their free speech rights.
(And I do feel for some of the parents of students who participated in this. While some may be closet or not-so-closet racists themselves, I can easily imagine that quite a few others are appalled and sickened that a beloved child would do such a thing.)
I have heard of cultural theme dorms or sections, but it was not required to be of the same race or ethnicity to live in them (although it is likely that most who chose them were).
Pizzagirl, what credible leader, be it political, community, academic, scholarly, religious, benevolent organization…has said they are O.K. with jackass Kanye West’s (and his fellow travelers’) bad lyrics, while opposing similar stuff from other misanthropes?
I don’t think OU can expel these kids either. They are a public university and therefore the First Amendment applies. Businesses like radio and TV stations and the Clippers can cancel shows or expel owners subject only to contract clauses.
Looking things up last night, I did see one case 20 years ago, in which Brown expelled a student for drunkenly shouting racists words near a dorm. It was his second offense. But Brown is private is it not?
Donald Sterling and Paula Dean are a different issue.
Folks have long been rightly subjected to the consequences of their free speech exercise in the free marketplace of ideas. That’s exactly how it is supposed to work. Sterling and Dean have free speech and freedom of association; so does everyone else too. We keep the government out of regulating content in the marketplace of ideas, and things take care of themselves.
Sterling and Dean were caught by the advance of technology. Neither really intended to advocate their views in the marketplace. But when everyone has broadcast TV studio in their pocket, your views can come to light in the marketplace much more easily than before.
SAE bros have presumably been singing that same song all over the country for a long time. But what goes around finally came around thanks to a smartphone. As Mitt “47%” Romney knows.
@TatinG : I heard about that happening at UCDavis, so I don’t think there was any selective media blackout of the story. As far as stories that gather attention - who knows. How many people spent the better part of 4 or 5 days talking about what color a dress was?
I think in the context of many other apparently racially motivated events that have captured significant attention from the media, this story had more traction for more people.