<p>Congrats to your daughter. I just left Scotland this morning so if you want my impressions message me here and then we can switch to e-mail.</p>
<p>Just wondering if anyone here has transferred or is applying to transfer from a US university?</p>
<p>Our S also recently recieved his acceptance to St. Andrews and is quite excited! He is still weighing other alternatives but he’s visited Fife and SA is an exciting option. I wish one of his friends would also apply. Any chance they’d admit more than one student from the same US public high school (both have VERY strong stats)?</p>
<p>Yes, they don’t count what high school you go to-if you are American and exceed the department requirements you will likely be accepted. So SATs over 2000 and 5’s on appropriate AP’s are what count most.</p>
<p>Also looking at St. Andrews. I’ll be in Edinburgh around new years. Anyone recommend spending a day of my vacation to visit there? Is it easily reached from Edinburgh?</p>
<p>Yes. It is about one hour train ride from Edinburgh and then a 15 minute cab ride. Well worth the visit.</p>
<p>I’m currently a student at St Andrews planning to transfer out. There are a few things I think I should warn anyone considering the school about:</p>
<p>St Andrews is VERY cliquey: Do not come here unless you feel you can fit neatly into a category - in my experience, it is very rare for people to mix socially here; they tend to restrict themselves to hanging out with the same people they met during first semester: those who usually fit into the same social category as they do. </p>
<p>It is extremely upper class: in a a recent lecture, International Relations professor Dr. Gentry pointed out how those outside the town perceive St Andrews students to be "elitist, sexist and racist. One of the biggest party’s of the year is Bongo Ball - an event with an ‘African’ themed, encouraging students to dress up in animal print and anything else that screams ‘Africa’. There are numerous problematic things about this event: people have come to it dressed up in black face, in colonialist costumes, and the theme to the Lion King is usually on the playlist. I found this event to be telling of how big of an upper-class bubble most of the people who go here live in: not only does it assume that Africa has only one culture, but it encourages generalizations about an entire continent. I could also name numerous problematic things I’ve witnessed regarding attitudes to class, but I think this has already been covered by others who criticize the school. I should also point out that people here tend to be very conservative. </p>
<p>Social pressure: For the most part, if you do not drink alcohol you will have a very hard time making friends. I would say the majority of society events at St Andrews revolve around consuming alcohol (an event would just not be at all successful if it did not provide free alcohol).</p>
<p>The British university system: personally, I found it very unsettling how I was corralled into a path: my advisers did not encourage me to take classes I enjoyed, only those which would leave a safe path to my degree. Obviously this system is great for those who are completely sure of what they want to do, but I hear a lot of people talk about how they would rather study a different course but have decided that they will complete their current course, usually because they either do not want to go through the trouble of re-doing their first year, or that their particular course looks better than their desired course to employers and grad schools. I have also noticed that most lack passion for their subjects: I have met a few who are very passionate about their course, but I feel they are the minority - no one really enjoys discussing their subjects, favoring to stick to mostly social topics.</p>
<p>There are of course pluses about the school, and I absolutely adore Scotland (which I have explored a lot) and the town itself, but it is just not the place for me. I think it was especially hard coming from a big city and adjusting to a small town life with very little diversity.</p>
<p>A few other points I can elaborate for anyone interested: academic support sucks, underwhelming first and second year courses, housing problems, tutorials and tutors,.</p>
<p>@starshaped -</p>
<p>I am very interested to hear more, so please do elaborate on academic support, first and second year courses, housing problems, tutorials and tutors, etc.</p>
<p>Don’t be concerned that we’ll take your word as gospel, as we have another child in college and understand that every school has kids who realize they’ve chosen a bad fit after spending time on their chosen campus. I’ve also seen firsthand that the peer group you fall in with during that first year can hugely influence school experience, as can your feelings about your chosen major. </p>
<p>Hearing more of your perspective would be great, and I hope any others with firsthand experience will chime is as well!</p>
<p>Yesterday on a plane I sat next to a guy with two sisters who had attended St. Andrews and both of them LOVED it and have gone on to hugely successful careers, so I know there are multiple sides to this coin.</p>
<p>Any University in the UK will have the majority of its social events centered around going out to bars/clubs and drinking. That’s just how the culture is. </p>
<p>I, personally, don’t think that’s something you have room to complain about that because it was up to you to determine the atmosphere and culture of both the school and country you wanted to study in prior to applying/attending that University. If you’re unhappy with that, you should have looked into it prior to attending the University. I would have assumed it was common knowledge that the drinking age in the UK is 18 and there is very heavy ‘pub/bar culture’. Universities in this country have bars in their colleges (dorms/living accommodations) even. Durham, for example, has 14 bars on campus; each college has its own bar. It’s the same with Oxbridge as well, to my knowledge.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, D attends a top US university and most photos I see of social gatherings there include big red cups. Some kids no doubt have alcohol in those cups, while others probably don’t. The fact that one socializes in a pub doesn’t mean one must drink, and (for better or worse) anyone who hopes to become a successful adult will need to learn to manage issues surrounding social drinking.</p>
<p>I am so sorry starshaped is unhappy with St. A. It isn’t for everyone. That said, there are a few things that are obvious. You don’t go to the UK unless you know what you want to study so being “corralled” into a path starts when you apply and it is clearly explained that one of the three course you choose first year must be your course of study for the next four years. So it is definitely not for the undecided. That said, I would say most 17-18 year olds don’t know yet what they want to study so they absolutely should not pick St. Andrews.
I talked with many students, some who prefer to not drink. They are in the same social groups with those who drink and for Raisin weekend receive disgusting concoctions from their academic Mums and Dads.
Socially and status wise the school is very diverse. Remember, Scots pay nothing and often receive bursaries. Most Americans are full pay so there can be significant differences in their family incomes. My daughter has friends with unlimited allowances and friends who are completely out of pocket money. They find ways to deal with it.
My daughter is very happy. No complaints.</p>
<p>I stayed in St. Andrews for half a year while visiting my M, T, and K. My B, S, and R were all currently attending and I had a first-hand experience of the social atmosphere at the university. Racism and classism were nearly ubiquitous. Many of the events held were outright racist and the attitudes expressed often featured internalised racism to the letter. It amazed me that such a lauded institution was a hotbed for ignorance and lack of nuanced thought. Anecdotal in nature, but many of the townspeople that I spoke to found the student body to be extremely unpleasant. The students would be banging on people’s doors at 3 AM for “fun” and screaming in the street and getting into altercations with each other and the police had to be called multiple times. This wasn’t just a one time occurrence; this behavior happened nearly every night. I didn’t mind it so much since I was there on vacation and had no real responsibilities; however, many people expressed that this continual behavior interferes with their lives. Many people also reported damaged property by students. I also met students who knew what they wanted to go into, but they were indeed “corralled” by the advisers. Many students told me about not being able to pursue areas that they wanted within their specified field of study and were instead forced to follow a path that the adviser said was best. No matter how much they protested against it, they were stuck with something they did not want and often times things that were completely irrelevant to their interests or intent of study. I’ve heard this sentiment from many other friends, including those who go to Oxford and Cambridge.</p>
<p>I come away with the great impression of the town itself and the beautiful country that is Scotland, but also a dim view of St. Andrews University and its study body.</p>
<p>C Note:</p>
<p>My son is a first year student at St Andrews, and he has made no mention of rowdy behavior.</p>
<p>He does say that people all go to the pubs on Thursday night, and he is not a drinker, and prefers to study, but that is probably the case in just about every college.</p>
<p>I don’t dispute what you say; I am just saying that at least until now, my son’s experience has been rather tame.</p>
<p>I asked my d. who is a first year (American ex-pat) to review the post by Cnote and share her impressions. Here are some of her comments:
I think in the UK in general, there is a bit more openness and joking about racism… Humor in the UK tends to be a bit darker, more sarcastic, and personal. Everyone makes fun of everyone… A lot of people (especially Americans) take offence to it at first until they get desensitized to it. I have yet to see any serious racism or discrimination based on country of origin,…</p>
<p>I agree about the classism thing, although from what I’ve seen it’s mostly all the average people making fun of the “rahs”, KK boys, and snooty american girls. There’s definitely an elitist population, and I don’t know what they say about the rest of us, but they definitely get made fun of far more than the poor kids. That being said, class distinctions in Britain as a whole are far more open and obvious than in the US due to the centuries of history behind the system.</p>
<p>As for the town/gown thing, the main problem seems to be with some of the Americans. They just come in with an incredibly pompous and entitled attitude, thinking far too much of themselves. On nights with major parties or events like raisin, I can see a bit of public disturbance being an issue, but not to the extent that person wrote. There are always going to be a few … who drink too much, and it may be that they give the rest of us a bad name. However in interactions with townspeople, I found them all very friendly. …</p>
<p>I would say most of this person’s comment comes from being ignorant of a different culture and enforcing their own notions of propriety on to it.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for these added perspectives!</p>
<p>As to the town/gown issues, I grew up in a US college town, both H and I attended various universities (both urban and suburban) throughout the US, and D is currently at a top US school in a small suburb, and in EVERY place we’ve had experience with where a top university is located there are issues between townies and “elitist” rowdy students. I have no firsthand experience with St. Andrews (aside from being a tourist there), but what C Note described has no doubt been said of any US college town we’ve had experience with.</p>
<p>I actually AM British, so I find it a bit rich that one would say I’m “ignorant” of a “different” culture. That last sentence sounds like some sort of superficial anthropological reading. I’m pretty sure I quite understand the humor of my native land and I find it rather insulting that this is called “British culture”. The people who go to St. Andrews represent a minuscule portion of British culture. Many of the attitudes are clearly fueled by the same ideas towards race fostered by class difference and other factors that you’d find in places such as America. It has nothing to do with humor and trying to pass it off as so is frankly sad to me. I also take issue with the usage of “poor” in your post, as if there is some significant population of impoverished people attending the university. Perhaps that is a poor stab at emulating British humour?</p>
<p>I can’t attest to whether the students causing problems are American or British. Again, some of what I posted is purely anecdotal, meaning that there isn’t necessarily a positive truth value to it. Most likely it is somewhat exaggerated, as anecdotal evidence often is, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t problems. I’m sure it also has to do with location within St. Andrews itself. I’m quite positive some areas are much quieter than others, naturally. However, in some areas there were definitely some antics being had. I stayed on South Street in the center of town and it was loud throughout the night. As soon as majority of students left for the year, this completely stopped. I can’t say I find that to be a coincidence. </p>
<p>The townspeople ARE friendly, and they will generally be friendly to whomever speaks to them. I have no qualms with this notion and I have no idea what exactly it is being used to represent in the argument. However, I can indeed point you in the direction of angry comments posted online from townspeople who do truly have a problem with the students, whether valid or not. These people DO exist.</p>
<p>Once again, I have a major problem with the billing of the students attending St. Andrews as being somehow representative of the British population and culture at large. They represent an extremely small niche of the culture. Ask your average person in London or your average person in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, Blackpool and what have you if they feel those who attend St. Andrews properly represent themselves. I’m quite positive I know the answer to that question. British culture is quite diverse with a growing influence from immigrants as well. To even pretend that those who attend St. Andrews are even a significant slice of British culture is naive and shows who is actually ignorant of the culture.</p>
<p>In the end, I find the generalisations of the Americans - because of course the Brits wouldn’t dare do such a thing - to be pretty telling. I don’t expect anyone to take my post too seriously, as it contains a good amount of unverifiable and anecdotal evidence. For instance, I could say that you should perhaps speak to some of the East Asian origin students currently going to St. Andrews and see how they feel about this so called lack of discrimination. I can claim that I spoke to some that seemed to have a differing opinions from your daughter; however, I’m sincerely doubting that this will actually matter to some. I should note that what group you hang around with can drastically alter your experiences and the things you are exposed to while in a certain place. I’m sure there are a myriad of interpretations of various experiences people have at St. Andrews.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I’m merely here to give my description of my experience and my findings at the university and am in no way claiming it to be 100% accurate or claiming that it is some sort of universal. It certainly does not apply to every student or group who goes there. Although, people often do love to feel like they are the group that these things do not apply to. I have no vested interest in this university, so I do not actually care to argue about the university. Take my words or leave them. In the end I’m relaying information that was given to me, all of which can be verified as actually happening, but to what degree of severity one can’t actually ascertain. </p>
<p>Good day.</p>
<p>CNote - I’m sure all of us considering St. Andrews value your perspective.</p>
<p>Any thoughts on how it would compare other UK schools our S is considering – Oxford, University College London or U of Edinburgh?</p>
<p>I wouldn’t be able to tell you much of anything about UCL, but I currently am in touch with a professor who went to Edinburgh and I have a close friend who goes to Oxford. I’m sure he’d happily assess the university if he isn’t too busy at the moment. I would say the an advantage of Edinburgh and UCL are that they aren’t as insular as St. Andrews is. I’d say this is an advantage to certain students seeking a certain environment. For instance, Columbia University in New York City isn’t known for having a real connected study body. New York is such a diverse city where all types of people can find different groups and events that suit their personality. To be fair, I think St. Andrews is well enough connected to the rest of Scotland that one could have a relatively decent off-campus social life; however, most of the students seem to have their social lives revolve heavily around intra-campus relations with mates from first-year. Some people will prefer this style as opposed to the Columbia/NYU style. Of course, London would be the more comparable to this than Edinburgh. Edinburgh is more of a happy medium. I’d highly suggest visiting each city, if you haven’t already. I’ll see what I can get from my friend at Oxford and if you have any questions in specific regarding the university feel free to leave me a message.</p>
<p>It would also be helpful if you could disclose what your son is interested in studying.</p>
<p>Our S has visited St. Andrews, Edinburgh, London and Oxford… but we’ve been tourists rather than specifically visiting the schools.</p>
<p>He is planning to study Chemistry, with the ultimate goal of getting a PhD and being a research scientist.</p>