The Second Circuit Court of Appeals upholds unpaid internships for the Fox movie production of Black Swan.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2015/07/07/why-the-second-circuit-made-a-flawed-decision-in-upholding-unpaid-internships/
Your thoughts on the ethics of unpaid internships? Educational benefit? Or exploitation?
The gov’t has a blanket exemption from paying interns, so it’s clear it favors the practice.
As the top comment on the NYT’s post about this said “define educational”. I’ve seen students from lower tier schools get college credit for jobs which ranged from security guard, to fast food worker, to front desk agent at a hotel since they pretended these were somehow related to their majors (they needed an internship to graduate so HR just classified it as such).
I’m a college student 1.5 years from graduating, taking my first paid internship in an entirely new city. I work at least 40 hours a week for this company and based on my performance evaluations may get a full time offer with them after I graduate (fingers crossed). Had they not compensated me for the work I’m doing, I could not afford the cost of rent, transportation, and food. Instead of being employed in a truly entry level position, I likely would have taken a job which typically has almost no room for advancement. That is to say nothing of the tens of millions of college students who rely on summer wages to get through school. For them, they may not be able to pursue the career they want since they were stupid enough to not be born into a family that can and will pay for all of their college and living expenses in full.
To not pay an intern for work performed is exploitation, plain and simple. If someone does work for the company, and it’s rare that an internship is truly strictly educational, they should be paid.
I think internships can be subsidized and whatever is being compensated by credits could be unpaid and anything above and beyond the hour effort required for those credits should be compensated. For instance if 4 credits has an expectation say 10 hours of class and study per week then a student working full time for 4 credits should be compensated for 30 hours pay per week + 4 credits.
Does bartering work for college credit reduce higher education into a trade school?
The latter.
Yes, but the govt makes clear that interns must receive educational/college credits to be unpaid. A much bigger difference than a multi-billion dollar company taking advantage of unpaid interns.
btw: the headline is a little misleading since the ruling only applies to the Second Circuit, i.e., they are only "back in a slice of the NE – yeah, I get that New Yorkers consider themselves the center of the Universe – but I’m betting the Ninth Circuit will have a much different opinion. (Kinda ironic, however, in that movie studios are a big “user” of unpaid interns and California law is pretty clear on that topic…)
We had a call with DS who is still a student. He said that “I am tired of being a student with no income and have to live in the dorm without a kitchen/refrigerator all these years.” Our call was not about this topic per se but the issue about living on a tight budget was somehow brought up. He had been “poor” (i.e., living mostly on his student loans and partly with our support.) and this could possibly trigger this sentiment. (He was sick on that day. Also, it probably has something to do with his recent getting-together with several of his college friends who have had a much better life style since graduation from college, I guess.)
Post #4, and the movie industry is the biggest backing of liberal policies like raising the minimum wage, etc… Obama is the biggest fundraiser from the the movie industry.
In some ways I think getting credits for internships is almost worse since students usually have to pay for those credits - so you are essentially having to pay to work for free. If internships truly trained students, I might feel differently - but all too many have them do grunt work. My older son did internships in the computer industry where they pay very well - more than enough to pay Mountain View rents and still have money left over. Younger son OTOH has had a completely unpaid internship and the current one which bascially pays lunch money and commuting costs.
I think its awful, and perpetuates a lot of the money/class problems that we have today. My daughter is in NYC at a paid internship, but we pay her housing. If she had to pay for housing, meals, transportation etc, she wouldnt make it, at least not there. I feel bad for the kids that bust their butts in school, but dont have the opportunity for internships because it is cost prohibitive.
Last summer, she had an unpaid internship in NYC, so basically we paid her to be there. Her internships have been awesome, and certainly the experience probably helped her getting such a good internship this summer.
I once wanted a job in television. Without any experience in TV, the odds were miniscule. I inquired about unpaid internships and was told you had to be a student. I had already graduated, but I signed up for 3 credits of independent study at the local state college, and got the internship. Once on the job, I made it clear to everyone that my goal was to land a “real” job. I worked my little tail off, coming in to help out the overnight crew, helping to haul gear and research stories. After four weeks, someone went up to me and said "learn that job. " It was the lowest-level non-secretarial newsroom position. Turns out, the person in that job was unhappy and planned to quit. When she finally did, there I was: fully trained and familiar with the newsroom. They interviewed others, but I got the job, since I was already there and doing it. I worked in that newsroom for the next decade.
In my case, an unpaid internship proved to be a very good investment. I like to think it worked for the company, too.
Sure it worked for the company. What it paid for before, u gave it away for free.
Your anecdote illustrates how unpaid internships takes jobs away from entry-level workers.
No, GMTplus7, they did not have anyone who did those duties before. I went up to newsroom staff and said, “what can I help you with?”
Entry-level jobs in TV require experience, experience which journalism students get during their studies (where an internship is part of getting the degree.) I got that experience by interning on my own.
I don’t necessarily think that all unpaid internships are good. My anecdote illustrates that in some cases they can be.
Well established companies should pay for interships. My company pay $15-$20/hour for interns although their work is not useful at all. It helps to advertise the company though.
That’s not consistent w what u wrote:
The position for which I trained during the latter part of my internship was an entry-level position – production assistant – for which an internship was necessary. Someone in the newsroom knew the current production assistant was unhappy, would leave, and suggested I learn the job. Which is what I did. I only got that job when the production assistant left. I didn’t take anyone’s job, rather filled it when there was a vacancy. Filled it, because I had an internship during which I proved myself to be capable and already trained. The internship allowed me to learn the job - and placed me at the right place at the right time. Which is often the case with internships; that’s one of the reasons they exist.
That’s still not justification not to pay u. Interns at other companies are subject to the same circumstances, and they get paid.
Oy. I give up. What part of “I didn’t take anyone’s job away” don’t you understand?
I don’t think any internship, any job, should be unpaid. I don’t think the President of the US should work unpaid (Kennedy), the governor of California (Arnie), the mayor of NY (Bloomberg). The entity should pay for the work, and the person can do whatever he wants with the earnings, but it makes it easier for people to elect the rich, and I don’t want my elected officials to be the richest guy.
When I was in college, I did not major in education because I couldn’t afford to take a semester off work to do the student teaching. I didn’t have a car to get to the school. I just couldn’t afford it. My SIL did it, but she was married to my brother and they were dirt poor that year.
I think the government ‘hiring’ lawyers to be first year US attorneys is unfair to the newly graduated and to the taxpayers. They expect law students to ‘donate’ a year to service, value of a Grade 11 or 12 attorney about $80-90k per year, to get experience because the federal budget doesn’t have the money, to pay their own expenses. Rich kids can afford this but poor ones can’t. Sure, their student loans will be deferred, but if they don’t make any payment at all, they won’t get credit toward the 120 payments needed for debt forgiveness.
I don’t agree with unpaid internships. Ever.
So you’re arguing that working for free first should be a condition for getting a job?
I appreciate the need for an internship. I just don’t see the rationale for an unpaid one. Even medical interns grt paid.
Fine. Run for office. Change, no overhaul, the way American work force is treated. You will be applauded by the majority of people including me. But in the meantime, don’t expect a lot of kvetching about internships. They’re a very small (and I would argue least important) part of what is unfair to the American worker. Elsewhere on this site, we’ve discussed the crummy vacations, unaffordable health care, outsourcing, racism, sexism and other hurdles facing anyone working in this country. Unpaid internships which affect a relatively small percentage of workers are , IMO, are the least of our problems.