Urgent: Smart kid in crisis: tests show high IQ, low WMI- what can be done to help?

Parents Forum Learning Differences and Challenges - LD, ADHD
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<p>Hi there... hoping someone can help us understand our daughter's situation a bit better before we go in for the I.E.P. meeting at the school. </p>

<p>Synopsis: super-smart kid (always in GT) began struggling sophomore year. Junior year had major breakdown, dx major depressive disorder with anorexia, self-harm, etc. She had to drop her full-I.B. courseload and is now attending school only for 3 morning classes, and taking Virtual High School classes on line at home. happily, now that meds and therapy are underway, the depression is definitely improving. However, we still need to attend to the academic issues. The school initiated testing and we just got the results. Need to get a handle on this before we go in to speak with them, since I foresee that we may need to be strong advocates in order to get them to do anything, since it's not a typical "learning disability" situation.</p>

<p>WAIC IV results:
Full IQ = 133
VCI = 147
PRI = 127
WMI = 100
PSI = 124</p>

<p>The administering psychologist wrote that while her WMI of 100 is just "average", and therefore not an immediately glaring problem, in a person of such otherwise high intellect the discrepancy between the scores can be a major problem, causing spiraling academic problems as the person experiences frustration and disappointment with their grades, contributing to more anxiety and eventually depression as we've seen.</p>

<p>WIAT III
Total = 134
math fluency = 88 (!)
everything else in the 113-150 range, with Oral Word Fluency being 150 (!)</p>

<p>I have thought for years that my daughter is extremely bright but has issues with concentration, attention, study skills, work organization, self-monitoring, etc, so these results are somewhat comforting in that my intuition was right! But what do we do now?</p>

<p>Here is a kid who is clearly very intelligent and could do great things. However, she often does very poorly in school. I feel that these test results show that she has an actual reason for her problems, not that she's simply lazy or a slacker. She articulated to me (after reading these results) that she DOES want to find a way to overcome these issues so that she can be more successful. (She really wants to go to a selective college, too, and knows she needs to figure this handicap out to both get accepted and to succeed once there.)</p>

<p>So my questions are:</p>

<p>1) Should I ask for further testing to tease out what's behind this? Is the school likely to give that to us? Would it even be helpful?</p>

<p>2) What, if any, strategies are there to help a kid in this situation? Are there specific types of therapy or tutoring that can help a 16-year-old improve at this point?</p>

<p>3) At the IEP meeting, if the school does not offer much, or any, help, what should we ask for? What accomodations in school could help my daughter succeed?</p>

<p>She is SUCH a very intellingent, creative, curious, marvelous girl, and it just breaks my heart to see her slipping through the cracks like this. If she could just get a handle on how to listen better, how to study, how to self-assess before tests, how to read instructions more carefully, how to do basic arithmetic (she always gets the higher concepts very quickly but then messes up on some multiplication or division in the actual problem! Every tutor she's worked with is dismayed when she fails tests after showing high-level knowledge of the concepts!)..... if she could just improve those she could do so well.</p>

<p>Any thoughts greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>Stacey</p>

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<p>Wow, that’s me. I have all of those problems. </p>

<p>I thought it was some deformity in my hippocampus or something. Still might be, I guess.</p>

<p>I’ve dealt with it rather crudely, and none of my ‘solutions’ would work if I weren’t smart — </p>

<p>Accepting that I will mess up in certain domains and making up for it in others. For example, my consistent forgetfulness guarantees that I will miss due dates for some assignments, so I have to do well on those I don’t forget.</p>

<p>Giving up the pursuit of organization in favor of a more crude but reliable principle — “If it’s all in one place, then it won’t take as much time to look for it.” This effectively translates to having a huge pile of papers loosely organized chronologically. >.></p>

<p>And deliberate self-regulation. Thinking about my thoughts (metacognition) amd always paying attention to the basic operations my mind carries out (and always checking them) gets me through math.</p>

<p>I dunno. :confused:
None of this may be sustainable as school gets harder.</p>

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<p>I think a neuropsychologist would be able to give you some specific recommendations. Perhaps you can take a copy of the testing in, and see what they say. We got very helpful feedback about my son this way.</p>

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<p>Your daughter’s situation sounds just like my son’s. He is labelled 2e or twice exceptional.
I don’t know anything about your school district, but here in Long Beach, CA, they fight you tooth and nail. They claim that limited resources most be used for kids with “bigger problems.” My son meets there minimal standards and thus they “are providing fair access to an appropriate education.” It has been extremely emotional for us, to see our son’s intellect wither away in frustration. We asked and received extra time and EVERYTHING. But there are always a few teachers that make this a struggle. You should also insist on regular updates, once per week, as far as woek not done or incompletely done. Ask them to teach your daughter executive function skills that she can use in college. If they tell you that they don’t have those resources, tell them that then they have to pay for outside help. Don’t play “nice” like I was for so many years and got nowhere. Don’t fall into the “Oh, the poor teachers have too much to do” trap. You are running out of time to get your daughter ready for college or a job. Be the broken record, don’t let them fluster you. Don’t get emotional, you will lose control. Believe me, I am speaking from experience. And I almost forgot, ask for transition services/plan. Insist that it be a plan to transition to college, not a job unless that is what you want. Finally, start be setting very concrfete goals and then talk about accommodations needed to get there. Think about how often you want reevaluate whether the plan is working. You do not have to limit yourself to once peer year.
GOOD LUCK!</p>

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<p>wantmylifeback, thank you! Can I ask whether your son had similar scores? i.e. was he high IQ with just “average” WMI, or was his WMI below average? I think that is what this will all hinge on for the school. Her IQ is 130 and the WMI is 100 (but it’s the 27-47 point spread between WMI and the other 3 scores that seems to be the issue.)</p>

<p>I really appreciate your comments. I wish I knew what, legally, we actually do have the right to… because I don’t want to be really aggressive about demanding help if they’re not legally obligated. I realize if it were a legitimate, diagnosable “learning disability” they would have to, but in this case where it’s not, I don’t know what they “must” do for us. The school-hired psychologist who did the evaluation had a list of recommendations at the end, using language like, “student might need…” “student might benefit from…” but they all say “might” and not “needs”. One thing she recommended was a mentor or someone to be (in her words) “on her case -not a parent- to … help help push through tasks that need to be accomplished”. That is something I have been specifically asking for for a year now and the school has told me repeatedly they do not have anyone who is able to devote that much time/attention to one child.</p>

<p>I also discovered yesterday that there is a doctor in town who apparently specializes in Executive Function issues and academic problems… he has written a book and does lectures and helps schools with IEP issues, so he seems like he’d be REALLY good to advise here. He’s available for private consults and therapy, too, and even administers the CogMed working memory building program. Do I have any grounds to ask that the school hire him? (We definitely can’t afford it on our own.)</p>

<p>Thanks-</p>

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<p>Your insurance may cover the doctor’s fees. Your daughter’s cognitive ability is very superior, but WM helps efficiency. Perhaps you could begin by buying the doctor’s book. If your daughter is on board with learning methods to plan better and be more organized she can begin immediately once she has the tools/information to do so. I also wonder how much the mental health issues have impacted her. She had been successful in school in the past, so ask her what worked for her prior to Sophomore year. I would guess that she is very good at adapting when she has been faced with an obstacle. My son has superior range VR and PR scores and a 79 in Processing, so I do empathize with you. You are doing a great job of supporting your daughter.</p>

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<p>staceyneil - I sent you a PM</p>

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<p>I think you should consult a lawyer that specializes is this area in your school district. You could save many thousands of dollars in the long run by knowing what your are entitled to receive from your school district for free.</p>

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<p>I agree with the earlier suggestion of getting a full neuropsych eval. At this point, you have no diagnosis to work with, and additional testing may help clarify the picture. With WMI that much lower, ADD is a possibility, but you need testing beyond the educational eval to rule that in or out. Your insurance might possibly pay for the testing - if you’re lucky - and it’s worthwhile to call your insurance company to get a list of diagnoses that they’d actually cover the neuropsych. In some cases, they’ll cover for ADD. You might also be able to work the angle of the previous psych history. If her psychologist/psychiatrist is willing, they can potentially refer her for a neuropsych. </p>

<p>Once you’ve got the additional testing and have a clearer picture of what you’re dealing with you can figure out next steps. But without a DSM diagnosis she’s unlikely to qualify for any assistance in school, especially in a public school. Further, she won’t qualify for assistance when she reaches college. She might benefit from working with an ADHD coach even if she doesn’t technically have that diagnosis to help her with developing strategies for dealing with school, and life for that matter! With that great brain she has, she’s certainly relied on her smarts up to this point to get by, and it can be tough to stop relying on her brain and start relying on other strategies and/or technology. It isn’t unusual at all for kids her age to finally start exhibiting problems once the course work has gotten complicated enough that smarts alone can’t get her through.</p>

<p>Hope that helps a bit. Hang in there.</p>

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<p>I have a 16 year old who did not present with any issues until middle school. He is very bright, extremely verbal, with low processing speed, reading comprehension, spacial relations. Became quite anxious especially in testing situations. He has a phenomenal rote memory but poor working memory. He was tested by school in 8th grade and diagnosed with ADHD, which I knew was not quite right. After one year of an IEP and therapy that wasn’t hitting the mark, we had a battery of neuropsych testing done. Result was Non-Verbal Learning Disorder, which exactly fits him. His IEP is now more specific to his needs. He requires a slower approach to certain subjects, but excels in the areas that are his strengths…anything with words! It was a long process, but we feel we have the right diagnosis now and can advocate for the right supports for him. Best of luck.</p>

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<p>Hi all- Just in case any other families with similar problems find this thread, I thought I’d post an update, to give some hope. Soon after I made this post, things began to dramatically improve. My daughter was able to see that there were actual definable (and fix-able) issues, and that was a milestone because she stopped blaming herself and feeling she was “stupid” (her word.)
In addition, she did receive an ADD (Primarily Inattentive) diagnosis a couple of months later. That was also a huge help, because there are so many strategies available for overcoming her executive function weaknesses and she eagerly embraced them.
Whether it was the medication and therapy, or simple will-power, my daughter started working very hard to overcome her problems. She got a scholarship to attend a challenging 3-week Outward Bound course at the end of the summer, and began the new school year with a terrific attitude. She sought out help where she needed it, spent long hours learning study skills and organizational techniques. She’s on honor roll again and challenging herself academically outside of the classroom, too.
She’s applied to some very selective schools and has been absolutely inspired by her visits. She’s so incredibly pumped to go to a college where people are super-excited and passionate about what they’re learning. I hope she gets in… because she’s ready for it now.
It’s pretty amazing and awesome :)</p>

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<p>Thanks for posting an update! My daughter has similar WISC scores and has encountered huge issues in middle school, and it’s good to know that it is possible to rebound from a bad school stint.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the update. I’m glad your D is succeeding. It gives me hope that things will work out for my D.</p>

<p>Schools don’t seem to be interested in helping kids who have big differences in scores but can still make “adequate progress.” I’m about to try again to get my D some accommodations for her comparatively slow processing speed. I don’t remember the scores, her processing speed percentile last time she was tested was in the high 30s, while all the others were 98%ile to 99+. The problem is really rearing its ugly head as the classes get more stratified. The assumption is that bright kids should be able to prove what they know quickly. For example, her last math exam grades were a D without any extra time and a B+ when the teacher allowed her just 5 extra minutes. Oh, asking again for extra time will be sooo much fun.</p>

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<p>I am glad the update was useful!</p>

<p>Snowme: How far have you gotten with the school? If it helps, Ill tell you about our experience and our schools’ process. It is a public school in New England, for what it’s worth. Also, I don’t have the correct terminologies here… there are very specific terms that the “team” insists on using to follow the federal and state guidelines. But hopefully you will get the gist.</p>

<p>We first went in for a 504 meeting. In our case, the school called the meeting because she’d missed so much school, but parents can -and often do- call the meetings themselves. The reason I mention this is that a 504 plan is the easiest way to get the sort of accomodations you’re looking for, i.e. extra time on tests. That can be done very easily with a 504 in place, along with extra time on assignments, taking tests in a separate, quiet room, etc. And , in our school at least, getting a 504 plan in place is relatively easy. The “team” just needs to agree it’s helpful, and I’d say if you have a report with her scores, and the example of that math test, it might not be too difficult.</p>

<p>The difficulty, for us, was the next step. We wanted an I.E.P. (Individualized Education Plan, or something like that) which would have qualified her for Special Education, because what our daughter needed was someone to actually teach her study skills, organizational skills, test-taking skills, and to be sort of coach to get her on track making sure she passed in assignments. Well, that requires one-on-one personalized contact and our school wouldn’t do it without her being formally qualified for Special Education with an IEP. To get an IEP two things are required. One is a weakness or diagnosis that qualifies. In our D’s case, her emotional issues was enough of a diagnosis, although what we were asking for was actually help for the learning disability aspect, that is the score discrepancy. In her case, the score discrepancy was NOT enough because her working memory score (the low one) was only 50%. I believe if it had been 30%, like your D’s, that would have qualified right there as a legitimate LD and they might have had to give us what we were asking for. I’m not entirely sure.</p>

<p>So in our case, she had the qualifying weakness/diagnosis but the nest step to actually get any help is to prove negative impact. For instance to be failing a class, or having multiple missing assignments. Now, she’d been failing classes several times. But just prior to scheduling the IEP, her depression had gotten so bad that we had intervened and decided (with the 504 plan) to reduce her school day to just 3 morning classes, and she had dropped all the ones she was struggling in. Then, it takes like 2 months between the initial scheduling and the actual meeting, for some crazy reason. During that time there were still a lot of missing assignments, but we were trying to help by reminding her …so on the day we actually had the meeting she was neither failing classes or missing assignments. And the judgement is made for THAT SPECIFIC MOMENT IN TIME. Not the weeks and months before, but that SPECIFIC day. So she was denied. I cannot even begin to explain how frustrating this was. They just sat there shaking their heads saying they could see that is what she needed but their hands were tied. Grrrrr. </p>

<p>So we eventually had to find a coach and pay for it ourselves. And, as we suspected, it was exactly what she needed. (And what I’d been asking the school for, in one form or another, for over 2 years. If we’d gotten that help earlier, we probably would have avoided the horrible depression and 18 months of suffering.)</p>

<p>So… my advice is to really advocate for your D and don’t back down. YOU can call a 504 meeting and go armed with your test scores and exam results. </p>

<p>I found this in one of the links I’d bookmarked about high IQ kids with specific low scores:
“An IEP (Individualized Educational Plan) with a 504 is a good idea to consider. When the WISC-IV Verbal Comprehension Index score is more than 15 points higher than the Processing Speed Index score there should be no problem getting a 504, which allows extra time on tests. The difference between the Index scores indicates that the child is able to communicate ideas verbally, but that his visual-motor processing skills are slow. Therefore, this child needs extra time on visual-motor tasks to allow him to get his ideas down on paper. I would also ask for modifications on homework and in-class writing assignments, so that the student only has to do enough to show he has grasped the concepts. Allowing the student to dictate extra practice materials is another option.”
(It’s from the following link, hopefully CC won’t delete it! Finding the Right Intervention to Increase Processing Speed - Bits of Wisdom for All)</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your daughter!</p>

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<p>Hi,I am just starting out on this journey with my son, a sophmore in HS. Similar story to you all! I am actually very happy and willing to pay out of pocket for a coach. My problem is: DS does not want one. He says “I can do this on my own”…but, he really can’t. Any advice on how to get him to jump on the band wagon? He was already tested by the neuropsychologist. He has the same kind of High IQ…“eh” grades…for what he “knows”… The school is going to get a team together to determine what kind of program he would benefit from, a 504 plan, or something else that is not “legal”??? I may not be understanding all this. BUT, I think that whatever he is given by the school, it isnt going to matter, if he isnt going to follow through.</p>

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<p>Hi drmom123</p>

<p>I am sorry you and your family are going through the same thing. Glad, though, that it’s been identified early! However, I think you’re right about your son needing to want the help. Honestly I don’t know if my D ever would have acknowledged she needed help if things hadn’t gotten so rock-bottom bad. In fact, we did encourage her to get various types of help (tutors, mainly) in sophomore and early junior year, but, like your son, she insisted she could do it herself (when she obviously couldn’t…) I think it’s part of them having been so very capable on their own for so long. It’s just alien to them to consider that they need assistance.</p>

<p>It did help my D to have those numbers in front of her, spelling out how smart she was in 3 cognitive areas but weak in one. Has your son seen his scores and discussed them with anyone?</p>

<hr>

<p>I actually just went and talked to my D about this, and she agreed that the turning point for her was probably hitting bottom. She’s not sure that she would have acknowledged her need for help earlier, even if she’d been tested earlier. (Certainly not embraced the help as she did this year.)</p>

<p>She did say that she thinks a really big part of accepting her weaknesses and embracing help was reading about and finding other people in her same situation. She said, “Realizing that it was a real THING helped a lot.” Then she did could stop fighting it, and stop blaming herself, and put the energy towards learning ways to succeed despite the weakness.</p>

<p>She went on to talk about how her downturn in grades (sophomore year) coincided with her growing feeling that she was actually smarter than some of her teachers. It gave her a sort of “why bother?” feeling.</p>

<p>She thinks the most important part for her was understanding her situation wasn’t unique: she suggested that your son might want to read some of the web pages, literature, forums, etc about people with his same situation. She thought actually talking to someone who was similar would be the best, and offered to text or skype with him if he wants.</p>

<p>I’d also be happy to share some of the links and PDFs and things I saved when we were researching this, if you wanted to share them with him. Feel free to PM me about any of this.</p>

<p>And hang in there… my daughter continues to improve. She has all As and one B+ this semester and is actually seeking out more and harder classes to add to her schedule for her last semester of high school. it MAY be too little too late to get her into the colleges she wants to go to, but we’ve got our fingers crossed!</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your son,
Stacey</p>

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<p>Thank you for sharing your story and the upbeat ending! My child has a similar profile and we were forced to pull her out of public school 5 years and pay for private education because she wasn’t failing anything, yet. Her state testing showed that she was reading 3 grades above grade level on their multiple choice tests while the psycho ed report showed that she was more like 4 grades below grade level! The “team” assured us that she would likely be doing poorly in 2-3 more years of public school and then she could get the support she needed!</p>

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<p>CogMed is a well researched program with lots of outcome data. But it isnt covered by insurance.</p>

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<p>DS is agreable try medication. We’ll see what happens…at least that is a step in some acceptance of needing help.</p>

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<p>So glad. Best of luck to you and your son!</p>